The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Arsonist Fae
jonas:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on September 25, 2017, 01:01:37 PM ---Yes, I can
On that scene on the boat, Harry is explicitly shooting everyone who tries to come aboard.
He mentions seeing Ace's face in the light of the muzzle flash.
Ergo, he got shot.
--- End quote ---
Where, doesn't tell me where. Where matters, even an especially to a central mass shot with an older rifle.
--- Quote ---Could his fae heritage have saved him? Probably not. The Redcap isn't known for being able to survive gunshot wounds. The big Redcap seemed to think Harry could kill him bare-handed.
--- End quote ---
Yea... as the WK, sure... so? has nothing to do with what he's actually capable of surviving?
--- Quote ---not talking about Elaine. You're talking about Ace.
--- End quote ---
I'm talking about who can balance where, and if Ace is SK balance or N, balance to Harry's power, or if it all goes into the new mythos come the New Spiritus Animus....
--- Quote ---And Elaine isn't the Summer Knight.
--- End quote ---
Yet...
--- Quote ---You're putting way more literalism into "the faerie courts balance each other" than has ever been evidenced in the books. Them acting to counter one another does not mean they do the same things.
--- End quote ---
Never said 'same thing' precisely but to act in balance to each others actions... however we Have empirical evidence they do just that. Mab choose Harry to kill Maeve despite years in between PG and CD and waited for the balance of him having killed Aurora too. So she acted directly in mirror to that, just like i'm pointing out the possibility of here in Titania saving ace, from a gunshot wound, on a boat. Also, since more than just Mab had a han8d in Harry, more than Titania can have a hand in Ace, so...
--- Quote ---She has one. His name is Fix.So is it the Fomor, or Titania? Or is Titania working with the Fomor?
--- End quote ---
with that attitude I have no chance of hammering home some understanding...
--- Quote ---Why would the Fomor care so much? If they did grab him, they'd probably just make him into a rank and file servitor.That's the point.
If Titania wanted to get an equal and opposite mirror to Harry, she wouldn't pick some random human whose track record against Harry is already 0-2. She'd get someone with real power already.
So you've never heard of Star Trek?
"Don't you dare insist you're right. Because I'm insisting I'm right!" Really?
--- End quote ---
No I've never heard of anyone signing off as Jim, but Jim sorry. And considering you were arguing someone in his book was dead it's not the first thing that came to mind. An I'm not insisting I'm right, I'm insisting you can't prove I'm wrong and that I have a valid preponderance of the evidence. Subtle difference.. also, that you may be wrong.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on September 25, 2017, 01:03:29 PM ---Right, so when Mab named Harry emissary, what did Titania do again?
Did she find a wizard of Harry's power and make them emissary?
No, she just sent her already-Summer hit squad.
Ergo, no, the queens do not balance each other by taking the same actions.
--- End quote ---
Actually, the hit squad was in balance to the Fetches sent out by Mab last year, she just waited to act til it helped her more. The moves are not tit for tat, neither is a physical confrontation, but the moves of each have a semblance, a balanced action toward the other, a defense for an offense a reaction for an action.
Where in those actions are toward the unseelie accords I don't see Summer acting I balance at all actually, possibly because that's Winters legit business. They have no Seelie accords for instance, Summer must be a signatory in the accords, have to abide by the words of the law. No reason for a Summer emissary, wasn't vs Summer interests, so she took what action she could with her held back squad to send after a mortal dice roll from before.
Harry set to kill Maeve years later proves my point absolutely. So if your gonna refute anything focus on what matters.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: jonas on September 25, 2017, 02:19:51 PM ---Where, doesn't tell me where. Where matters, even an especially to a central mass shot with an older rifle.
--- End quote ---
So what are you proposing here, that Harry shot Ace, and they just ... sat there till Harry got picked up? And that it's an "older rifle" doesn't matter. A gun doesn't become less lethal because it's an older model.
You're really reaching here.
--- Quote ---Yea... as the WK, sure... so? has nothing to do with what he's actually capable of surviving?
--- End quote ---
Sure. You're saying that getting blasted with a rifle wouldn't kill Ace, who hadn't Chosen and wouldn't have had the full power of the Redcap, while the Redcap himself felt he had to cheat in a hand-to-hand fight to beat Harry.
--- Quote ---I'm talking about who can balance where, and if Ace is SK balance or N, balance to Harry's power, or if it all goes into the new mythos come the New Spiritus Animus....
--- End quote ---
What on Earth are you talking about?
Look, Ace just isn't a "balance" to Harry's power. He's not. He doesn't have anywhere near the power or ability that Harry showed even before he was the Winter Knight. Ace is a goon, a flunky.
--- Quote ---Never said 'same thing' precisely but to act in balance to each others actions... however we Have empirical evidence they do just that. Mab choose Harry to kill Maeve despite years in between PG and CD and waited for the balance of him having killed Aurora too. So she acted directly in mirror to that, just like i'm pointing out the possibility of here in Titania saving ace, from a gunshot wound, on a boat. Also, since more than just Mab had a han8d in Harry, more than Titania can have a hand in Ace, so...
--- End quote ---
You did. You kept saying that because Harry was shot and killed on Lake Michigan, the same thing would happen to Ace.
And that's not at all why Mab had Harry kill Maeve. She had Harry kill Maeve because she was a nemesis agent, not because she felt her daughter had to die by Harry's hand because Aurora did.
Also, I'd like to point out that Titania doesn't care. About anything. Killing Aurora broke her, remember? She says as much. Just as she says she was talked out of punishing Harry over it. She just plain is not going to go to the effort to revive someone like Ace, if she's going to go to the effort of reviving anybody.
--- Quote ---with that attitude I have no chance of hammering home some understanding...
--- End quote ---
You're the one doing all the stretching to justify bringing back a character that nobody in the books has any incentive or reason to revive. Don't talk to me about "attitude."
--- Quote ---No I've never heard of anyone signing off as Jim, but Jim sorry. And considering you were arguing someone in his book was dead it's not the first thing that came to mind. An I'm not insisting I'm right, I'm insisting you can't prove I'm wrong and that I have a valid preponderance of the evidence. Subtle difference.. also, that you may be wrong.
--- End quote ---
Not "signing off as Jim." Quoting a line that's ubiquitous in pop culture in general and SF/Fantasy fandom in particular.
As for "not insisting I'm right," what do you call this:
--- Quote ---cause when He pops up I WILL remind you
--- End quote ---
That sounds like you're pretty darn insistent.
--- Quote from: jonas on September 25, 2017, 02:27:54 PM ---Actually, the hit squad was in balance to the Fetches sent out by Mab last year, she just waited to act til it helped her more.
--- End quote ---
There's nothing in the books that suggests this; the conclusion everyone comes to is that the move is directly because Harry is Winter's Emissary in that book. Hell, the word "fetch" is used once in the whole book, in reference to someone fetching a bag.
I mean, look at the Gruffs and the terms they're under. They're hunting Harry explicitly in relation to Marcone's capture. Eldest Gruff calls it off once Marcone and Harry are safely off the island. Everything about them is explicitly and directly about the Small Favor case, and nobody once suggests it's "balance" about the Fetches.
--- Quote ---I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”
“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to
seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will
you preserve your own.” She paused. “Unless…”
“Unless?”
“Unless you should agree to take up the mantle of the Winter
Knight,” Mab said, smiling. “I should be forced to choose another
Emissary if you did, and your involvement in this matter could end.”
Her eyelids lowered, sleepily sensual, and her surrogate voice
turned liquid, heady, an audible caress. “As my Knight you would
know power and pleasure that few mortals have tasted.”
--- End quote ---
And there's Mab explicitly stating that Summer's emissary -- the Gruffs -- are after Harry because he's Mab's Emissary, explicitly in relation to the case of Marcone.
Again, nothing to do with the Fetches.
--- Quote ---Where in those actions are toward the unseelie accords I don't see Summer acting I balance at all actually, possibly because that's Winters legit business. They have no Seelie accords for instance, Summer must be a signatory in the accords, have to abide by the words of the law. No reason for a Summer emissary, wasn't vs Summer interests, so she took what action she could with her held back squad to send after a mortal dice roll from before.
--- End quote ---
Except Summer was involved. It's explicitly involved. That's why the Gruffs are hunting Harry, explicitly to do with the case that he's an emissary for. You're just straight up ignoring half the books.
--- Quote ---Harry set to kill Maeve years later proves my point absolutely. So if your gonna refute anything focus on what matters.
--- End quote ---
Nope, doesn't come anywhere near to proving your point. At this point, you're making things up and drawing connections the book never does.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on September 25, 2017, 02:48:23 PM ---So what are you proposing here, that Harry shot Ace, and they just ... sat there till Harry got picked up? And that it's an "older rifle" doesn't matter. A gun doesn't become less lethal because it's an older model.
Your really reaching here.
--- End quote ---
It actually effects both accuracy, penetration and power based upon the gun type. Your reaching all day to stop me, practically goal tending here lol.
--- Quote ---Sure. You're saying that getting blasted with a rifle wouldn't kill Ace, who hadn't Chosen and wouldn't have had the full power of the Redcap, while the Redcap himself felt he had to cheat in a hand-to-hand fight to beat Harry.
--- End quote ---
the red cap cheats it's his nature... pouncing on unsuspecting vics an all.
--- Quote ---What on Earth are you talking about?
--- End quote ---
*sing song* I'll never tell...
--- Quote ---Look, Ace just isn't a "balance" to Harry's power. He's not. He doesn't have anywhere near the power or ability that Harry showed even before he was the Winter Knight. Ace is a goon, a flunky.
--- End quote ---
Winter makes weapons, Summer arms them fyi, different standard.
--- Quote ---You did. You kept saying that because Harry was shot and killed on Lake Michigan, the same thing would happen to Ace.
--- End quote ---
Don't play the I don't understand nuances card, I've seen that before.
--- Quote ---And that's not at all why Mab had Harry kill Maeve. She had Harry kill Maeve because she was a nemesis agent, not because she felt her daughter had to die by Harry's hand because Aurora did.
--- End quote ---
Aurora was acting with N as well fyi, and that second point is my point, thanks for finally seeing it. She 'felt' that because harry did it, it should be done by him in balance
--- Quote ---Also, I'd like to point out that Titania doesn't care. About anything. Killing Aurora broke her, remember? She says as much. Just as she says she was talked out of punishing Harry over it. She just plain is not going to go to the effort to revive someone like Ace, if she's going to go to the effort of reviving anybody.
--- End quote ---
If Harry admits he cant possibly predict a fae woman, how shall we? If she didn't care she wouldn't have Told him about N.
--- Quote ---You're the one doing all the stretching to justify bringing back a character that nobody in the books has any incentive or reason to revive. Don't talk to me about "attitude."
--- End quote ---
No, i'm pointing out the actual justifications in the thematic storyline, and your trying to disprove a point not disprovable. It stand alone as an idea with it's own reasoning opinionating it to death won't work. and you outright refused to give empirical evidence(which is your own perspective proof btw)
--- Quote ---Not "signing off as Jim." Quoting a line that's ubiquitous in pop culture in general and SF/Fantasy fandom in particular.
As for "not insisting I'm right," what do you call this:
That sounds like you're pretty darn insistent.
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty darn certain, i'm not trying to insist you have the same view or break yours. You choose to respon8de to me that it wasn't possible after all.
--- Quote ---There's nothing in the books that suggests this; the conclusion everyone comes to is that the move is directly because Harry is Winter's Emissary in that book.
--- End quote ---
You don't know me at all do ye? The suggestion is that since it happen8ed hours before something was afoot with it, I supplied my own reasoned deduction. Which has valid points in it as well...
--- Quote ---I mean, look at the Gruffs and the terms they're under. They're hunting Harry explicitly in relation to Marcone's capture. Eldest Gruff calls it off once Marcone and Harry are safely off the island. Everything about them is explicitly and directly about the Small Favor case, and nobody once suggests it's "balance" about the Fetches.
--- End quote ---
Why would they need to? Fae offer up free info when it's meant to be a mystery anyway?
--- Quote ---Except Summer was involved. It's explicitly involved. That's why the Gruffs are hunting Harry, explicitly to do with the case that he's an emissary for. You're just straight up ignoring half the books.
--- End quote ---
Must be mutual? fyi Gruff says once the field of battle has been concluded, he never directly states we're here as Summers version of an emissary. your missing the point of my response there. instead of sending an emissary to the matter, which was directly in reply to the queens action fyi, they sent a hit squad...
--- Quote ---Nope, doesn't come anywhere near to proving your point. At this point, you're making things up and drawing connections the book never does.
--- End quote ---
Yea, drawing conclusions the books don't that's why some of us are here you know?
figured you'd ignore the only thing that matters by dismissing it. i'm done with arguing and receiving disbelief to try an refute valid points. Mab sending harry in direct semblance to him killing Aurora proves m9y point entirely fyi.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: jonas on September 25, 2017, 03:25:44 PM ---It actually effects both accuracy, penetration and power based upon the gun type. Your reaching all day to stop me, practically goal tending here lol.
--- End quote ---
Nope. I'm stating what's stated in the books. No reaching at all.
--- Quote --- the red cap cheats it's his nature... pouncing on unsuspecting vics an all.
--- End quote ---
Right, does "ambush unsuspecting victims" sound like something that's going to be strong and resilient?
Look at nature. Ambush predators avoid stand-up fights because they can't do stand-up fights.
--- Quote ---*sing song* I'll never tell...
--- End quote ---
Right, so we're going into pure childishness here?
--- Quote ---Winter makes weapons, Summer arms them fyi, different standard.
--- End quote ---
Irrelevant. Ace is still nothing special. You're moving the goalposts with every answer.
--- Quote ---Don't play the I don't understand nuances card, I've seen that before.
--- End quote ---
Not playing that card at all. There's no nuance to what you're saying. You're making things up and ignoring the text of the books in some weird attempt to make Ace out to be more important than he is.
--- Quote ---Aurora was acting with N as well fyi, and that second point is my point, thanks for finally seeing it. She 'felt' that because harry did it, it should be done by him in balance
--- End quote ---
That's still not Mab's motivation. Her motivation has nothing to do with Harry or balance, any more than it did when she cured Lea.
--- Quote ---If Harry admits he cant possibly predict a fae woman, how shall we? If she didn't care she wouldn't have Told him about N.
--- End quote ---
She says as much, and she can't lie.
--- Quote ---No, i'm pointing out the actual justifications in the thematic storyline, and your trying to disprove a point not disprovable. It stand alone as an idea with it's own reasoning opinionating it to death won't work. and you outright refused to give empirical evidence(which is your own perspective proof btw)
--- End quote ---
I've pointed to the text of the books. Repeatedly. You've ignored the text of the books. Repeatedly. There isn't a "thematic" reason to bring Ace back. He's a low-level flunky who wasn't even good at the meager jobs he tried to do. His story is that of the tragic coward. You know how Harry's a medium fish in a large pond? Ace is a minnow.
--- Quote ---I'm pretty darn certain, i'm not trying to insist you have the same view or break yours. You choose to respon8de to me that it wasn't possible after all.
--- End quote ---
I think if you look through my posts, I never said it wasn't possible. I said it's not going to happen because Ace doesn't matter, he's not a "balance" to Harry, he was shot dead by Harry in territory where Summer had no influence, and Titania isn't going to bother because she can barely be arsed to do anything at all these days.
The idea that anyone is going to revive Ace involves ignoring all of that and appending importance and ability to him that he just plain does not have.
--- Quote ---You don't know me at all do ye? The suggestion is that since it happen8ed hours before something was afoot with it, I supplied my own reasoned deduction. Which has valid points in it as well...
--- End quote ---
Except, as I just quoted (empirical evidence, remember?) Mab outright and explicitly says they're hunting Harry in specific relation to Marcone's capture.
The Gruffs themselves say they're hunting Harry in specific relation to Marcone's capture.
The idea that it's balance for the Fetches is never once suggested by anyone in the course of the whole book. That's not "reasoned deduction," that's jumping to a totally unsupported conclusion.
--- Quote ---Why would they need to? Fae offer up free info when it's meant to be a mystery anyway?
--- End quote ---
It's not meant to be a mystery. They are explicitly clear why they're acting. You're looking for a "mystery" to justify the idea that Ace could come back, when there is in reality nothing there.
--- Quote ---Must be mutual? fyi Gruff says once the field of battle has been concluded, he never directly states we're here as Summers version of an emissary. your missing the point of my response there. instead of sending an emissary to the matter, which was directly in reply to the queens action fyi, they sent a hit squad...
--- End quote ---
Mab says they're Summer's Emissary. She can't lie.
And that Summer sent a hit squad was my point. That Summer does not mirror Winter's action with the same action, and I was saying so to refute the point that Ace must have been revived from being shot on Lake Michigan because of your assertion that he would have because that's what Winter did for Harry.
You are, again, moving the goalposts.
--- Quote ---Yea, drawing conclusions the books don't that's why some of us are here you know?
figured you'd ignore the only thing that matters by dismissing it. i'm done with arguing and receiving disbelief to try an refute valid points. Mab sending harry in direct semblance to him killing Aurora proves m9y point entirely fyi.
--- End quote ---
You're jumping to conclusions on things the books never say, and in fact indicate the opposite. You're stuck on this idea that Ace is some kind of nemesis of Harry, when that's simply not the case.
Just saying "it proves my point" doesn't make it true. I've already addressed that point.
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