Author Topic: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler  (Read 16957 times)

Offline Zaphodess

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 975
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 02:43:40 PM »
I already said that in the little bit you quoted, then pointed out why that's significant and why your early assertation that Stoker had informants or researched himself was off track... you can't say it one way before and claim you meant something else now... that's not what you were referring to earlier  It's not linearly connected to the idea Stoker researched or 'had informants' vs what I already pointed out, Lara did it. Who is also a venator who knows all about how the oblivion war works. It's not a big leap when Mab had Disney make fairy land to cement the Sidhe back in that someone else can do the same. Someone else who knows the value of mortal information.
Look, I don't wanna go into one of those discussions about a stupid point where people dissect each other's posts sentence per sentence for ages. They usually aren't very interesting for anybody else. I wrote informants because Stoker had been provided the information. It is commonly known that those "informants" were the WC, especially Lara. I wasn't trying to argue anything else, I just used a word that I thought would be understood in the meaning that's commonly accepted afaik. Maybe that wasn't the best choice of words, so sue me.

btw: English is not my first language, so I am simply going to claim some leniency for stupid foreigners here.  ;)

Offline Shecky

  • Bartender
  • O. M. G.
  • ****
  • Posts: 34672
  • Feh.
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 03:08:03 PM »
Gentle reminder: what happens on these forums is intended to be friendly discussion, so let's keep it that way.
Official forum rules and precepts; please read: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23096.0.html

Quote from: Stanton Infeld
Well, if you couldn't do that with your bulls***, Leonard, I suspect the lad's impervious.

Offline Zaphodess

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 975
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2017, 05:15:16 PM »
Gentle reminder: what happens on these forums is intended to be friendly discussion, so let's keep it that way.

You're right, sorry.

Jonas, I apologise if I've hurt your feelings. It wasn't my intention and I never intended to get sarcastic. Please let me rephrase my personal, subjective opinion on this statement of yours:
Quote
Stoker changed that not by publicizing their secret weakness's, but by causing belief about them to create said weakness's.
It is my opinion that for this to be true, too many factors other than belief have to be cut out of the equation. Their relevance isn't reflected in your theory. Physics, the power of the opposition, other beliefs maybe ... The most important one imo is that belief doesn't just happen, it has to have a strong basis to grow from, and it probably doesn't do diddly if it is just one guy believing something, no matter how strongly he does so. The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped. In my interpretation, the logical consequence of your proposed theory is that something very akin to wishful thinking could be effective. Imo, the power of faith is not that easy to be tapped into because true faith just isn't that easy and it might not be able to account for everything.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2017, 06:30:33 PM »
You're right, sorry.

Jonas, I apologise if I've hurt your feelings. It wasn't my intention and I never intended to get sarcastic. Please let me rephrase my personal, subjective opinion on this statement of yours:It is my opinion that for this to be true, too many factors other than belief have to be cut out of the equation. Their relevance isn't reflected in your theory. Physics, the power of the opposition, other beliefs maybe ... The most important one imo is that belief doesn't just happen, it has to have a strong basis to grow from, and it probably doesn't do diddly if it is just one guy believing something, no matter how strongly he does so. The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped. In my interpretation, the logical consequence of your proposed theory is that something very akin to wishful thinking could be effective. Imo, the power of faith is not that easy to be tapped into because true faith just isn't that easy and it might not be able to account for everything.
I would add to this that while it's been stated (by harry in Day One) that Belief can indeed create new creatures or provide exisitng creatures an identity enough to manifest, I think it would be a whole other order of magnitude to be able to /override/ an existing creature with new Powers or Rules, especially against their will.  It shoud be easier to grant a willing creature a new Strength than to impose a Weakness on an enemy. 

There is also a measure of innertia at work that I think would prevent such changes from happening quickly.  Look at Santa Clause as an example:  Outside of your major global religions, he probably has more sincere belief Aimed at him than any other figure I could name, a wide swath of the modern human population hurls their hopes and dreams at him for the first handful of years of their life, and the belief of Children is potent stuff.  Yet despite the shear mass of all that focused belief, he is still at least 100 year behind his popular image.  So if that sort of Belief mechanism can be weaponized against it's own subject, I suspect it is the sort of thing that would need to work on much longer timescales, more like the Oblivion War.  Stoker was a gambit that played out in a handful of years. 
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 06:47:50 PM »
You're right, sorry.

Jonas, I apologise if I've hurt your feelings. It wasn't my intention and I never intended to get sarcastic.[
Why thank you, and I myself apologize for any abruptness.
Quote
Please let me rephrase my personal, subjective opinion on this statement of yours:It is my opinion that for this to be true, too many factors other than belief have to be cut out of the equation. Their relevance isn't reflected in your theory. Physics, the power of the opposition, other beliefs maybe ... The most important one imo is that belief doesn't just happen, it has to have a strong basis to grow from, and it probably doesn't do diddly if it is just one guy believing something, no matter how strongly he does so. The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped. In my interpretation, the logical consequence of your proposed theory is that something very akin to wishful thinking could be effective. Imo, the power of faith is not that easy to be tapped into because true faith just isn't that easy and it might not be able to account for everything.
Stating your opinion is fine, but when you don't reply to my circumstantial evidence, quote someone else as pointing out something I pointed out directly. An then precede to disagree by opinion, which you've already stated, I tend to feel offended a bit... if you don't wanna dissect everything that's fine. I don't want to get into opinion versus opinion rage matches, so I try to stick with where I'm at on my hill and dissect things, not wonder if I can oust you from yours. Elvis is the only king I'll ever recognize ;)
Quote
The reason I called your theory an over-simplification is this: I think it would just be way too easy to finish a strong enemy if I just made people believe they had certain weaknesses if those weaknesses were not really there. That'd be dangerous misinformation, not a weapon to be shaped.
Going back to this and the point I thought i'd made, the BC was relatively new, a mere 500 yrs or so old. and since their was no information on them it becomes impossible to disseminate disinformation. Now on the other hand if I know BVC came recently from outside, understand the consequences and nuances of the oblivion war at mortal knowledge and then proceed to cement something more so in reality by spreading a book about it then I must have a better reason then revealing weakness's to mortals. Mortals already had faith and fire and garlic, already used them for other things even as you pointed out. But somehow the scourge continued to spread.
Now I already mentioned the brother Grimm/Disney addition from Mab to cement her court. (and would now point out those original stories she used are very precise) both of these context don't actually spread pure knowledge, but the belief actually attached to it as the original idea. Let me also point out Mab and her court might be syphoning off power from a dozen remakes that change everything about them, but it's the original idea/story that continues to hold sway. Why is that important? Because before stoker the thing that was Drakul, that birthed the BCV's was never connected to being a vampire or producing vampire heirs. So the very belief that we were dealing with a new vampire caught hold itself in Stoker's book's. again, he defined them. With my premise being Lara did so intentionally. If you wanna discuss that or refute it, cool.
*that might help with your 'inertia' Quantus. Stoker was the originator of said momentum.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2017, 07:37:04 PM »
Why is that important? Because before stoker the thing that was Drakul, that birthed the BCV's was never connected to being a vampire or producing vampire heirs. So the very belief that we were dealing with a new vampire caught hold itself in Stoker's book's. again, he defined them. With my premise being Lara did so intentionally. If you wanna discuss that or refute it, cool.
*that might help with your 'inertia' Quantus. Stoker was the originator of said momentum.
This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files.  Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues.  The Black Court existed prior to the publication of Bram Stoker, and said publication ididnt actually Change the Black Court, it simply advertised them.  It had the side benefit of making everyone believe that Black Court where THE vampire race, so the others could point to it and say "See, I can eat garlic so Clearly Im not a Vampire."  But again, this is a matter of publication of their weaknesses, not spontaneous generation of new weaknesses. 
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline kazimmoinuddin

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4366
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2017, 08:48:19 PM »
I think it was said that Dracula created the BCV to impress his father Drakul. This made me wonder if this might have been an attempt to fully access his inhuman nature he had inherited, or aid his father in being released from his human form.
If there is such a link, I wonder what would happen if an altered dark hollow ritual was done using the BCV as the fuel.
k moinuddin

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2017, 10:08:37 PM »
This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files.  Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues.
replace drakul with Dracula then, the father son issue always confuses me, it has nothing to do with the df, just the damn thing itself always confuzzles me.
Quote
  The Black Court existed prior to the publication of Bram Stoker, and said publication ididnt actually Change the Black Court, it simply advertised them.
That's what's up for debate here actually, your inferring that from what you believe from your perspective but that don't mean it's true. Point of fact Ramps have all the same weaknesses as Blamps to a lesser degree(except maybe garlic, I can't confirm that offhand) and people already knew about them so advertising known vampire weaknesses doesn't help directly. Pointing out another being is a vampire could help define them as such though. since they are greater effected by faith, I tie that into being angelic in nature, the belief applied to them that they are vampires actually causes vampire weaknesses to effect them more, such as it does.
Quote
It had the side benefit of making everyone believe that Black Court where THE vampire race, so the others could point to it and say "See, I can eat garlic so Clearly Im not a Vampire."  But again, this is a matter of publication of their weaknesses, not spontaneous generation of new weaknesses.
Spontaneous generation of a whole new race born from angelic power is precisely what happened when Dracula did the deed. It was an entirely new creation without tags from other things connecting it to reality. A virtual unknown that stayed that way. You can't say what you think and have it automatically refute a theory... that's not how theory works. It's why they're so damnably frustrating sometime. I avoid raging against things like he-who-walks-beside though..
Again, this isn't refuting anything I've supplied through inference. Just trying to point out the difference. Probably gonna have to pull out the history books, look through Ms Ducks work and shore up my defenses... my hill shall not be allowed to easily stand ;D
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 10:20:21 PM by jonas »
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 12:43:21 PM »
replace drakul with Dracula then, the father son issue always confuses me, it has nothing to do with the df, just the damn thing itself always confuzzles me.
Issues keeping the two straight, or are you saying you dont understand why Dracula would have parental issues?

Quote
That's what's up for debate here actually, your inferring that from what you believe from your perspective but that don't mean it's true. Point of fact Ramps have all the same weaknesses as Blamps to a lesser degree(except maybe garlic, I can't confirm that offhand) and people already knew about them so advertising known vampire weaknesses doesn't help directly.

Pointing out another being is a vampire could help define them as such though. since they are greater effected by faith, I tie that into being angelic in nature, the belief applied to them that they are vampires actually causes vampire weaknesses to effect them more, such as it does.
Ramps ware weak to Sunlight and Faith.  Blampires are weak to those, and also Garlic, theoretically Necromancy, and if we take the Stoker book as a valid source, running water and the mirror bit and a host of others. Which is enough differential to leverage in the 19th century.  But I suspect White Court would not have minded if there was Collateral Red Court Damage, regardless.

Quote
Spontaneous generation of a whole new race born from angelic power is precisely what happened when Dracula did the deed. It was an entirely new creation without tags from other things connecting it to reality. A virtual unknown that stayed that way.
1)I really think it is a HUGE leap to say that because something has a weakness to Faith Energy it has to be rooted in Angelic Power.  Angels do not have a monopoly on Faith energy.  2)What Dracula did in "creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire" is a wildly different thing than publishing a book and spontaneously creating a new monstrous Race out of pure belief, and has to be a wildly different thing than instantly (or near enough by ageless corpse standards) Imposing wholly new weakness on a pre-existing race. Otherwise, there would be Jedi running around (and Butters doesnt count) and more people falling through wardrobes.

In the same way that it basically has to be way more difficult to RE-Name something as compared to Naming something for the first Time.  We can agree on that much of the function of things at least, Agreed?

Quote
You can't say what you think and have it automatically refute a theory... that's not how theory works. It's why they're so damnably frustrating sometime. I avoid raging against things like he-who-walks-beside though..

Again, this isn't refuting anything I've supplied through inference. Just trying to point out the difference. Probably gonna have to pull out the history books, look through Ms Ducks work and shore up my defenses... my hill shall not be allowed to easily stand ;D

Ive been trying to refute your theory point by point as best I can, but you havent given me much to work with beyond your initial assertions.  So far they've been based on factually incorrect things, as near as I can see.  The black court had been around for at least 600 years (Mavra's age) so the book was not part of their genesis, at all.  Historically, Vlad Drakul and his son Dracula where kicking around in the 1400's, and while that can always change in the DV I doubt it would become more recent.  There's never been any mention of them gaining /New/ weaknesses at any point, and logic dictates that if it were possible, the Council and others would have used the technique a hell of a lot more.  You seem to be basing a lot of your theories on a notion that DV reality is a whole lot more fluid and responsive to small-scale and/or transient beliefs than the evidence suggests, at least to me.

But please give me something that points to a Change in the Black Court after the publication of Bram's book, aside from the literally dying of the publicity, that would open a lot of interesting possibilities. 
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3913
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 03:50:06 PM »
This is simply incorrect in the Dresden Files.  Drakul and Dracula are two completely different people. Drakul doesnt have any connection to vampires at all (that we know of), rather his son Dracula specifically and intentionally Created the Black Court in the course of vague family Drama and daddy issues.

I think the relevant WOJ leaned pretty strongly in the direction that Vlad Dracula didn't intend on exactly the result he got by founding the Black Court. It wasn't explicit, but I got the sense he'd halfway flubbed an ascension ritual and turned himself into a monster rather than a minor god.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 04:21:24 PM »
I think the relevant WOJ leaned pretty strongly in the direction that Vlad Dracula didn't intend on exactly the result he got by founding the Black Court. It wasn't explicit, but I got the sense he'd halfway flubbed an ascension ritual and turned himself into a monster rather than a minor god.
I got a similar impression, though Im not personally leaning toward an ascension-ritual persay.  Per WOJ "They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly", and Drakul is something "entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form". I think Dracula Tried to get in touch with the "extended family" and got tainted/possessed by what he let in. Or rather let Inside... <Insert ominous thunderclap here>
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 06:07:38 PM »
Quote
Issues keeping the two straight,
That, I  confabulate them as the same person cause for years I thought they were.
1it doesn't have to be rooted in angelic power, but isn't it? Drakul in the DF I think is literally Lucifer trapped in a mortal vessel without his power(Thematically, this gives him less power but more choice, perhaps why he has more clout vs influencing and lying to mortals?) it comes from an old thread here that discusses how Micheal calls Mavra serpent spawn. Lucifer is a fallen, and a dragon without wings is a serpent. the thread more or less came to the unanimous decision Micheals oaths and a few other things mean basically Drakul-Lucifer Dracula-son of the devil.(really not sure what happened to that thread, nom nom monster prbobly)
Get back to you on the rest in a bit.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3913
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 06:32:09 PM »
1it doesn't have to be rooted in angelic power, but isn't it? Drakul in the DF I think is literally Lucifer trapped in a mortal vessel without his power

Nice explanation for Michael's description of Mavra, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold together. We know Lucifer is not deprived of his power, because he sponsored the Hellfire pentagram traps in Small Favor - Uriel confirmed Harry's deduction that energy expenditure on that level had to indicate an archangel 'cheated' to involve himself, by saying that was what gave him room to balance the scales by granting Harry soulfire.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 06:35:01 PM »
Nice explanation for Michael's description of Mavra, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold together. We know Lucifer is not deprived of his power, because he sponsored the Hellfire pentagram traps in Small Favor - Uriel confirmed Harry's deduction that energy expenditure on that level had to indicate an archangel 'cheated' to involve himself, by saying that was what gave him room to balance the scales by granting Harry soulfire.
Agreed, for the same evidence.

My own personal theory at this point is that Drakul was an Outsider that got trapped in human form via unique Shenanigans, and that Dracula was to make contact and things spiraled out of control.  But I have no actual proof of that, and there's nothing to say that whatever Power Dracula was reaching for was actually related to Drakul's origins.
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: White Court, Venatori and Kemmler
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2017, 12:33:32 AM »
Nice explanation for Michael's description of Mavra, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold together. We know Lucifer is not deprived of his power, because he sponsored the Hellfire pentagram traps in Small Favor - Uriel confirmed Harry's deduction that energy expenditure on that level had to indicate an archangel 'cheated' to involve himself, by saying that was what gave him room to balance the scales by granting Harry soulfire.
Never said his power wasn't there, just that' its' not with him
Quote
@GiftedMonster Though for the record, the Dresden universe angels have been around since before time was a Thing. #TemporalHipsters
As he was quickly signing books, I figured I wouldn't be able to get a long answer out of him, so I shot for a yes no question - "Does Satan rule hell like Hades rules his place?" was what I tried to ask, but as soon as I said "Does Satan rule hell-" he frowned and said no. But then he heard the rest of my question and elaborated. I think I remember his answer verbatim: "Hades is like the CEO of his own small company, sort of. Satan is more like an officer of a sprawling multinational conglomerate - the hierarchy of hell operates exactly like a corporation, obviously" By 'an officer', I assume he meant CEO, what with being a fallen archangel and all, but the word he used was officer.
Q:  Difference between the Fallen and other creatures from Hell?
A:  Fallen are like corporate – they’ve got the backing of an organization.
And another I can't find that talks about how the fallen might only 'think' their the original beings. Which i'd point out if a greek woman was really what Lasciel originally looked like then Human's would have to always been a part of creation which Isn't true per the dragon's being annoyed they moved into such a position of importance when they arrived. So the idea a dragon being an angel from the dino age makes some sense, Lucifer being the fallen snake makes more so.
But to get back to the above, It point's out Lucifer isn't really in charge. As an officer he can approve a requisition 'form' without actually holding the power itself. and unlike what Uriel did electively, What Nic did was directly through a spell format. It wasn't that much different then a summoning of his power. Even an outsider like Hwwbh who has no power 'here' can make contact through sponsorship.
Going back to the Mortal body, dragon power comparison, Ferro isn't capable of all his earth shattering might as a dragon when he took on a lesser form, he was still connected to his power. but he wasn't wearing it. I'd compare it favorably of making or possessing the ability to create or have something akin to the fae knights free willed mantles but not as your true/main form.(something Baba Yaga most certainly did with the walking stick). So he's stuck in a form connected to his power, but not His form.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:11:42 AM by jonas »
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.