Hierarchy of the Courts

[Rasins]

The outer gates down count toward the balance(iirc correctly, there were summer troops up there too, as medics)When the queens summon the full extent of their power it calls out to all the fae even those unaligned directly. I calls to them as part of their power.

How do you figure that?  Oh, okay, I'll address it in your last point.

It's also directly states in SK that summer has had the edge recently, which isn't possible including the OG's forces. An another proof they aren't part of it, in PG Harry releasing Summer Fire into winter's wellspring would have emptied the wall of defenders, that we know of it did not. or else they coulda rushed the wall then and there.

Two things.
First in the book it said that when Harry did that ALL of winter felt it and started rushing to AT to defend it.  It did not say that ANY actually arrived.  Further we know that the Outer Gates are a LONG way away.  Just because they are rushing toward AT does not mean that they actually made the trip.  Once the "attack" was over, heck days later, all the troops at the Wall would have turned around and gone back to defending the Gates.

Second, we KNOW that Harry is an unreliable Narrator.  We KNOW other times when Harry was just plain wrong.  This is another example.

As to the Outsiders being able to rush the wall right then and there, maybe they did.  By the time we saw the Gates in Cold Days, even the Gatekeeper said that it could go for years without any action, but that it was busy then.  Its ENTIRELY within the realm of possibility that there were no attackers at the Gates then.

Doesn't say anything about the courts it says  So they are hers but that doesn't actually make them part of the court.[/b] Like the Marines and Navy seals are both American forces, but not of the same division. The Royal troops aren't part of the galaxy defense forces.

That makes no sense.  Both the Marines and the Navy are part of the American "Court".  Just like all of Winter's forces are part of the Winter Court.

Also, the Marines are actually part of the Navy.

[jonas]

That makes no sense.  Both the Marines and the Navy are part of the American "Court".  Just like all of Winter's forces are part of the Winter Court.

Also, the Marines are actually part of the Navy

In the majority of countries, the marine force is part of the navy, but it can also be under the army like the Troupes de marine (French Marines) and Givati Brigade (Israeli Marines), or form an independent armed service branch like the United States Marine Corps and Royal Marines.

So the idea they are both part of the court and not an independent division is purely your perspective on it. Seems to me if the warriors on the wall started panicking and running even if momentarily it could quickly lead to a route before they could recover themselves. Considering nobodies super pissed at Harry for leaving the gate open I tend to doubt it. it would have been lumped in by GK in TC as things that happened with irregularity and considerable consequence because of Dresden, as he was pointing out his possible 'crimes'.

[Rasins]

So the idea they are both part of the court and not an independent division is purely your perspective on it. Seems to me if the warriors on the wall started panicking and running even if momentarily it could quickly lead to a route before they could recover themselves. Considering nobodies super pissed at Harry for leaving the gate open I tend to doubt it. it would have been lumped in by GK in TC as things that happened with irregularity and considerable consequence because of Dresden, as he was pointing out his possible 'crimes'.

No, it's not my perspective. 

All members of the United States Military are either citizens of the United States, or swear "fealty" to the officers placed in charge of them, thus effectively making them members of the "court" that is the US.

Other countries may do it differently, but ALL of them have one thing in common ... they work for, and support the country/court they work for.

This means they ARE part of the country/court.  No, they are not nobles in the court, but they are members of the country/court.

As to the defenders at the Outer Gate, as I pointed out before, per the Gatekeeper, there are long stretches of time when there is no activity.  That the present (during Cold Days) action was especially fierce.  Considering that the action there is taking place 6 years after the events of Proven Guilty, there is no reason to believe that there was action going on during PG.  Evidence to suggest that there was very little going on at the Outer Gates is that the Gatekeeper even sent a note to Harry to investigate black magic in Chicago.  If the Gates were under siege, how did the Gatekeeper have time to KNOW about the black magic, let alone send a note?

[jonas]

No, it's not my perspective. 

All members of the United States Military are either citizens of the United States, or swear "fealty" to the officers placed in charge of them, thus effectively making them members of the "court" that is the US.

Marines don't take chain of command from Army leaders, or navy except at the highest levels. we're talking about to different forces with two different jobs/ chains of command, not the nation as a whole. Being a citizen of 'the court' doesn't put you in the Marines and neither does being a member of the army. Joining the marines puts you in the marines.

Other countries may do it differently, but ALL of them have one thing in common ... they work for, and support the country/court they work for.

Indeed but that's not changing them being there own thing. or lumping different divisions into one.

This means they ARE part of the country/court.  No, they are not nobles in the court, but they are members of the country/court.

and in it's joint task force with another rival country instead of being in the standing army to stave off that same country.

As to the defenders at the Outer Gate, as I pointed out before, per the Gatekeeper, there are long stretches of time when there is no activity.  That the present (during Cold Days) action was especially fierce.

Considering that the action there is taking place 6 years after the events of Proven Guilty, there is no reason to believe that there was action going on during PG.

Nor is there especially reason to believe it's dead there by that regard, which I don't agree with, but don't need to farther match with a different reasoning than yours.

  Evidence to suggest that there was very little going on at the Outer Gates is that the Gatekeeper even sent a note to Harry to investigate black magic in Chicago.  If the Gates were under siege, how did the Gatekeeper have time to KNOW about the black magic, let alone send a note?

he sifts through the future and this is specifically one of those things everybody says he got from futuretense premonition type abilities. Someone who's precognitive tends to make time, when they have the time. Or ya know, just make the time themselves.
Since we don't know when PG happened relative to actual time anyway...
Here's another one, In SK the queens are sending out summons to all in the court to join them or choose a side amongst the wyld(which i'm sure whomever was already wintery felt her call stronger and vice versa), but on the battlefield Mab's forces are not gigantic by comparison, but they were specifically summoning/calling their courts to them. and she didn't call all her forces their either.

[Rasins]

Marines don't take chain of command from Army leaders, or navy except at the highest levels. we're talking about to different forces with two different jobs/ chains of command, not the nation as a whole. Being a citizen of 'the court' doesn't put you in the Marines and neither does being a member of the army. Joining the marines puts you in the marines.

I'm not following you here.  The Army, the Navy, and the Marines are all part of the "country" or Court.  No, they are not part of each others chains of command.

What I don't you're getting is that Winter's forces are ALL part of the same chain of command.  And sitting on top of that chain is Mab (with a nod to Mother Winter).

Or are you suggesting that Winter and Summer are like the Army and Marines?

he sifts through the future and this is specifically one of those things everybody says he got from futuretense premonition type abilities. Someone who's precognitive tends to make time, when they have the time. Or ya know, just make the time themselves.

Huh?  If he's busy fighting at the wall, then he has no time.

Since we don't know when PG happened relative to actual time anyway...
Here's another one, In SK the queens are sending out summons to all in the court to join them or choose a side amongst the wyld(which i'm sure whomever was already wintery felt her call stronger and vice versa), but on the battlefield Mab's forces are not gigantic by comparison, but they were specifically summoning/calling their courts to them. and she didn't call all her forces their either.

Actually we KNOW that Mab's forces ARE Gigantic in comparison to Summer's.  If she was to bring them in from the Outer Gates, neither Summer, nor our Reality could stand against her.  Only Titania could take Mab down personally, but the Forces at Mab's disposal are overwhelming.

Harry just didn't know that in SK.

[jonas]

I'm not following you here.  The Army, the Navy, and the Marines are all part of the "country" or Court.  No, they are not part of each others chains of command.

What I don't you're getting is that Winter's forces are ALL part of the same chain of command.  And sitting on top of that chain is Mab (with a nod to Mother Winter).

Or are you suggesting that Winter and Summer are like the Army and Marines?

Sitting at the figure head of that chain is the president yes? but he's not either.

Huh?  If he's busy fighting at the wall, then he has no time.

For someone who can literally listen to the future, and send messages back to his younger self, you'd think I wouldn't have to explain how little time he wastes vs his efficiency in dealing with it in linear details.

Actually we KNOW that Mab's forces ARE Gigantic in comparison to Summer's.  If she was to bring them in from the Outer Gates, neither Summer, nor our Reality could stand against her.  Only Titania could take Mab down personally, but the Forces at Mab's disposal are overwhelming.

Harry just didn't know that in SK.

Well, yep. you got me there, cause when she summoned her court and all her higher attendants the the Gate Corp just didn't receive the same commands. The concept I think I need to introduce here after examining this, is Mab doesn't just balance with Aurora. The courts balance themselves, Mab and Titania balance each other, but Mab has this extra authority that's not balance in the courts. For someone representative of literal balance, a rep for maintaining said balance itself.(*should add here she specifically is roled with balancing N's lead of the outsiders and the outsider forces) The courts represent the influence in the mortal realm itself while Mab's forces are something else(Summer and winter don't matter here. ad libbed from MS) not meant to effect said balance as it was shown between the courts in SK (largely shown in the absence of the SK) or between Mab and Titania personally. Titania's specifically their to insure Mab does not use the extra power she has been given to attempt to use it inside reality, thus effecting the balance and resulting in Titania pulling them both directly into oblivion(which offhand, i'd LOVE an explanation on the workings of that one Jim).
So it's hard to say those troops are specifically a part of the court when the balance between seasons is maintained all over the earthly realm by said court.

[Rasins]

Sitting at the figure head of that chain is the president yes? but he's not either.

No, no, no ... the President is not a figurehead.  He IS the Commander in Chief, just like Mab is.

For someone who can literally listen to the future, and send messages back to his younger self, you'd think I wouldn't have to explain how little time he wastes vs his efficiency in dealing with it in linear details.

That is an assumption.  We don't know that's the case. 

Well, yep. you got me there, cause when she summoned her court and all her higher attendants the the Gate Corp just didn't receive the same commands. The concept I think I need to introduce here after examining this, is Mab doesn't just balance with Aurora. The courts balance themselves, Mab and Titania balance each other, but Mab has this extra authority that's not balance in the courts. For someone representative of literal balance, a rep for maintaining said balance itself. The courts represent the influence in the mortal realm itself while Mab's forces are something else(Summer and winter don't matter here. ad libbed from MS) not meant to effect said balance as it was shown between the courts in SK (largely shown in the absence of the SK) or between Mab and Titania personally. Titania's specifically their to insure Mab does not use the extra power she has been given to attempt to use it inside reality, thus effecting the balance and resulting in Titania pulling them both directly into oblivion(which offhand, i'd LOVE an explanation on the workings of that one Jim).
So it's hard to say those troops are specifically a part of the court when the balance between seasons is maintained all over the earthly realm by said court.

Okay, it is said in the books that the forces at the outer gate are Winter forces (with some Summer who help).

It is also said that these forces, that are Winter, outnumber summer by like a "Kagillion to one".

So, like I've been saying, there is no balance between the courts.  Winter outweighs Summer by like a "Kagillion to one".

Titania is the balance against Mab in the event that she pulls the forces off of the wall to attack reality, thus promoting the current lady, who would be expected to send the forces back to the outer gates.

[Con]

It is also said in the books that Mab would have to forfeit reality in order to take down summer. Directly by Mother Summer, a far more reliable source than Harry.

The Balance between the courts is within the World. The forces on The Outside are nullenvoid for the fact that to use them against Summer would be worst than tantamount to suicide.

Finally Mother Summer also directly states that Titania and therefor Summer Court has their power to protect humanity from Mab.

Look here's the scene.

(click to show/hide)

"I don't... I don't understand" I said finally "White Council intelligence always estimated Mab's troop count at around fifty thousand. There are freaking formations out there with more troops in them than that"
.......

((p332-333))

"The edge of Faerie" she said "Our outer borders. It would have taken you a decade to learn to travel out this far"
"Oh" I said "And... and it's like this"
"In essence" MotherSummer said She stared sadly out over the plain. "Did you think Mab spent all her days sitting in her chair and dealing with her backstabbing courtiers? No Sir Knight. Power has purpose"
"What happens  if they get in?" I asked.
Mother Summer's lips thinned. "Everything stops. Everything"
"Holy crap" I muttered. "Does Summer have a place like this too then?"
Mother Summer shook her head. "That was never it's task. Your COuncil's estimate was fairly close counting only those troops protecting the hearts of Winter and Summer. Mab has more than that. She needs them- for this."
I felt like I'd been hit repeatedly in the head with a rubber hammer. "So... Mab's troops outnumber yours by a  jillion."
Indeed"
"So she could run you over at any time"
"She could" Mother Summer said "if she were willing to forfeit reality"
I scanned the length of the wall nervously. It looked like it went on forever and there was fighting all along its length.
"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her [pwer? To... to protect the borders?"
"To protect all of you from the Outsiders, mortal"
"Then why does Titania have hers?" I asked.
"To protect all of you from Mab"
I swallowed.
"Titania cannot match Mab's forces but she can drag Mab personally into oblivion with her- and Mab knows it. Titania is the check to her power, the balance"
.....
((p 334))


"Huh" I said.
"Yes?" asked Mother Summer.
"I was sort of expecting... something else."
"Winter and Summer are twi opposing forces of ouw world" she said "But we are of our world. Here that is all that matters. And showing respect to one's elders is never unwise".
......
((p334-335))

Instead a column of carts and litters entered bearing the groaning wounded of the fighting outside, being watched over by several dozen Sidhe dressed in pure white armor marked with bold green and scarlet trim-Sidhe knights of Summer. Medics.

Ok so. Mother Summer is the direct source for several outright statements and confirmations. First purpose. "Power has Purpose", and it isn't Summer's "task" to protect the Outside.

Second Harry's use of the word and term "a jillion" gets the response "Indeed". According to the multiple online dictionaries a jillion means an indefinitely vast number or a fancifully large number. So either Mab has an Infinite number or just an as yest stated number of forces at the Outer Gates. Given Sidhe can't lie and the Mothers are required to be as vague as possible... could be argued either way. But either way regardless it doesn't count towards the Balance of the Courts because of the following statements.

"So she could run you over at any time"
"She could" Mother Summer said "If she were willing to forfeit reality"

That is an outright statement, confirmation, and fact that Mab would have to forfeit reality if she were to use her forces against Summer. There by in every practical and even technical detail, they could not be used in any conflict or measurement of the two opposing forces.

That Mab's  purpose is

"To protect all of you from The Outsiders, mortal"
"Then why does Titania have hers?" I asked
"To Protect all of you from Mab

So right there is a statement, confirmation and fact. Thaat Mab's purpose is to defend mortals from The Outer Gates, That Titania's is to protect mortals from Mab. Which is further clarified below.

"Titania cannot match Mab's forces, but she can drag Mab personally into oblivion with her-and Mab knows it. Titania is the check to her power, the balance"

A further outright statement, confirmation and fact that using the explicit term of "The Balance". That Mab would have to forfeit reality, let the Outsiders overrrun the Gates, before Titania would "drag Mab personally into oblivion with her".

They are a BALANCE.

Finally

"Winter and Summer are opposing forces of our world" She said. "But we are of our world"

Winter and Summer are "opposing forces" of the same world. Neither side would want to forfeit reality to the Outsiders. They are a balance. As states and confirmed by Mother Summer.

[jonas]

No, no, no ... the President is not a figurehead.  He IS the Commander in Chief, just like Mab is.

Figure head of military might when he himself is not a military asset, figurehead.

That is an assumption.  We don't know that's the case. 

Actually with the eye and his direct reference to 'listening' to the future, we do. ;p

Okay, it is said in the books that the forces at the outer gate are Winter forces (with some Summer who help).

It is also said that these forces, that are Winter, outnumber summer by like a "Kagillion to one".

So, like I've been saying, there is no balance between the courts.  Winter outweighs Summer by like a "Kagillion to one".

The courts weigh each other perfectly. winter forces outweight summer forces. The courts themselves were called to battle with each other and non of this unbalanced crap came up with it. The one time the courts were specifically unbalanced it messed with all of reality via toad rain. Winter and summer courts are tied to the weather, the weather isn't in an ice age, ergo the courts are not unbalanced.

Titania is the balance against Mab in the event that she pulls the forces off of the wall to attack reality, thus promoting the current lady, who would be expected to send the forces back to the outer gates.

Doesn't make them all part of the same leverage, point of fact we know said leverage is toward the outsiders not toward anything inside Summer.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I am thinking the fomor are made out of factions the Sihde defeated and destroyed when they rose to power. So eventually the fomor will enact their revenge.

The table is the seat of power for the courts, some how unifying the differing powers. Since the fomor are they themselves made multiple different groups, they must have something akin to the table. I suggested that to defeat the fomor, They would go after the beings of power. But what if instead they struck at this convergence of power. The knight mantle when the host dies can be recalled to the table, so I wonder if the powers of the court are similarly tied to the fomor version.

[Rasins]

The courts weigh each other perfectly. winter forces outweight summer forces. The courts themselves were called to battle with each other and non of this unbalanced crap came up with it. The one time the courts were specifically unbalanced it messed with all of reality via toad rain. Winter and summer courts are tied to the weather, the weather isn't in an ice age, ergo the courts are not unbalanced.

The reason for the unbalance had Nothing to do with the courts themselves.  It had to do with missing power.  Summer's POWER had been reduced when the power represented by the Summer Knight was hidden (in rock).  That was a war over the imbalance of the power, not imbalance in the courts.  Remember it was Harry who said/assumed it was an imbalance between the courts, not the power of the Queens. 

Had Aurora been successful in transferring the power from Summer to Winter then Tatiana would NOT have been a check to Mab's power.  Then there would have been an imbalance between not only the courts, but in the power between the Queens as well.

CON,

I'm not arguing against anything you said there.  However, the fact that Mab's COULD overrun Summer's proves that there is no balance between the courts.

Now, Mab cannot do that, due to restrictions on her power.  However, should Mab become Nemfected, ALL bets are off.  Then she COULD order the forces off the wall and into our Farie or even our reality.

[jonas]

The reason for the unbalance had Nothing to do with the courts themselves.  It had to do with missing power.  Summer's POWER had been reduced when the power represented by the Summer Knight was hidden (in rock).

Summer's power? what is summer? a court?

That was a war over the imbalance of the power, not imbalance in the courts.

You first try to claim winter can't have troops outside the court and now your claiming summers imbalance was not of the court? That's an oxymoronic statement to your previous statement. 

Remember it was Harry who said/assumed it was an imbalance between the courts, not the power of the Queens. 

If I had it handy.. I guess we'll ignore the fact the whole thing centered around the stone table giving power to the court? And what Mab did to the winter table directly sent the WK mantle(or just it's 'power' as was the only counter argument) through the court proving it to already be a part of the power of court itself?

Had Aurora been successful in transferring the power from Summer to Winter then Tatiana would NOT have been a check to Mab's power.  Then there would have been an imbalance between not only the courts, but in the power between the Queens as well.

I see no reason why Titania couldn't still pull Mab to Oblivion, but far be it for me to argue against an unrelated theory..

CON,

I'm not arguing against anything you said there.  However, the fact that Mab's COULD overrun Summer's proves that there is no balance between the courts.

Now, Mab cannot do that, due to restrictions on her power.  However, should Mab become Nemfected, ALL bets are off.  Then she COULD order the forces off the wall and into our Farie or even our reality.

See now here's the thing, I'm not really sure what a straw man is, but when stuff like this comes up I feel like i'm getting the old 'throw the lackey/something in the crosshairs' routine. Putting up whatever defense seems tactically sound without perspective on the overall strategy to be produced. The argument against here actually misaligns with previous arguments against my position and it's that at that point I feel it devolves into a one-up-man-ship :-/ I don't need that please.
(also why all my theories generally align, less chance of contradicting myself )

*you should know, someone whose genuinely empathetic/intuitive as I appear to be can kinda read between the lines while I'm simply conversing with people across a forum as well... I KNOW I'm annoying. I know forcing someone to confront an alternative idea by logical displacement can cause mental dissonance and aggravation. I can forsee the backlash.. So sorry.

[wardenferry419]

Based on what I remember, Mab has two war fronts. The first war front is the outsider wall where say 90% of her soldiers are fighting. The second and lesser front is the border between Winter and Summer where Mab has the remaining 10%. Titania has the near totality of her forces, which are the equal of Mab's 10%, on this border as well. That is the balance of power with the mortal world being a sort of middle ground for power plays of control. That is how I am interpreting the situation.

[peregrine]

I don't think that Winter and Summer are currently engaged in a hot war.  It's mostly a war of deterrence.  Summer has amassed enough of an army to stop Mab from rolling over the world with the remainder of her forces that she can spare from the Wall.

[Rasins]

Summer's power? what is summer? a court?

I hope you recognize the difference between Summer court, and the power ... the magic that is summer?  The same for winter. 

The Court is made up of the members of the court.  The people. 
The Power is made up of the magic, as represented by Winter's Wellspring (for example).

If you lump them together then there can be much confusion.

You first try to claim winter can't have troops outside the court and now your claiming summers imbalance was not of the court? That's an oxymoronic statement to your previous statement.

I never claimed that winters troops were not part of the court.  You claimed that those troops at the Outer Gates were not part of the court.  I've said from the beginning that they WERE/ARE part of the court, and that is why there is no balance between the courts.

The balance exists between the POWER that each of the Queens can wield, separate from their armies.  Because they are separate.

If I had it handy.. I guess we'll ignore the fact the whole thing centered around the stone table giving power to the court? And what Mab did to the winter table directly sent the WK mantle(or just it's 'power' as was the only counter argument) through the court proving it to already be a part of the power of court itself?I see no reason why Titania couldn't still pull Mab to Oblivion, but far be it for me to argue against an unrelated theory..

Well, mostly because in Summer Knight, it was the POWER of the summer knight that would have been added to the Power of Winter, not the power of the Winter knight, which, as you say, is already part of Winter's power.

Based on what I remember, Mab has two war fronts. The first war front is the outsider wall where say 90% of her soldiers are fighting. The second and lesser front is the border between Winter and Summer where Mab has the remaining 10%. Titania has the near totality of her forces, which are the equal of Mab's 10%, on this border as well. That is the balance of power with the mortal world being a sort of middle ground for power plays of control. That is how I am interpreting the situation.

THIS!!  From a troops perspective.