Small Favor: Why Mab got involved in the first place

[Zaphodess]

It's always been a bit of a mystery why Mab tried to save Marcone in Small Favor, even before he was actually attacked to boot, and I think I might have an explanation that's both logical and doesn't give Mr. Occam too much headache.

Maeve was involved.

Mab knew that Nemesis had gotten Maeve. She wasn't ready to kill her just yet, but she sure as hell kept tabs on what she was doing.

So, if Maeve was active in Chicago, Mab took notice too. Hence the snowfall. It couldn't have been obvious to her what exactly the plan was, so she decided to spend a favor to hire Harry and had the new Accord member under observation as well. Maeve wouldn't have liked that much, so she made sure that Titania knew about Harry becoming an Emissary of Winter, making him a legit target for her revenge. There might be someone Nemfected left in Summer after all, after Aurora. That's why the first move from Harry's pov was from Summer's Emissaries, trying to kill him. Ironicyally, it made Mab's job to convince him to take it up a lot easier (ok, maybe she engineered that herself, wouldn't be the first or the last time she puts Harry in a corner to get him to do her bidding). Anyway, Marcone was abducted by parties unknown to Mab. She said so explicitly when she showed Harry the snow model, so she didn't knew at that point in time who else was on the enemy team. Harry finds out and gets the Council involved and everything ...

Here comes Maeve's most likely move (imho): Catching the Archive at the train station (or maybe at the place she intended to stay) before Nicodemus could lay his hands on her.

Mab figured it out just in time. She realized that she had made a mistake in assuming that Marcone was the (primary) target Nemesis/her daughter was after. In a desperate attempt to prevent that, she sent the Hobbs, taking the risk that they killed the current host of the Archive. The Archive would have gone to the next person in line and been safe from Nemfection.

Harry (with Uriel's help) did the rest.

I suppose that conversation Ivy had with Mab was somewhat awkward.

[Quantus]

Only catch I see off-hand is the timeline of Harry's hiring:  The Gruff's already began attacking Harry as the Winter Emissary /Before/ Marcone was Taken in the first place, and long before Mab would have chosen an emissary for that reason.   

Per SmF, Ch 7:

For example: Mab had said that Summer’s hit men were after me because Mab had chosen me to be her Emissary. But for that to be true, she had to have done it hours ago, at least a little while before the first crew of gruffs had attacked me at the Carpenter place.

And that had happened several hours before the bad guys grabbed Marcone.

Someone was running a game, all right. Someone was keeping secrets.

[wardenferry419]

What if Mab thought that Harry was the target, initially, and choose him as emissary so that she could make her role more official?

[jonas]

Only catch I see off-hand is the timeline of Harry's hiring:  The Gruff's already began attacking Harry as the Winter Emissary /Before/ Marcone was Taken in the first place, and long before Mab would have chosen an emissary for that reason.   

Per SmF, Ch 7:

See now, this is why I always assumed she hired Anduriel and that's the 'small favor' WK Harry is actually repaying later(I know, I know. Supposedly it's from an ancient two places at once debt, but I don't remember the wording and I like this idea anyway) So Mab had already made the first play by asking Nic to challenge the new baron of Chicago/Unseelie mortal. Later she's pissed because Nic undermined her accords by kidnapping the neutral negotiator It's never said she was mad about the initial challenge, that was an accepted thing she hired an emissary to handle. The thing is, Harry's her hidden ace weapon, everybody's really, and she specifically had reason to throw together that pressure cooker of violence waiting to happen, She'd recently had her home attacked by one of the Fallen. And what's the result at the end of this book? The presumed accused end up dead and missing by the end. Coincidence? Meh, I don't believe in them.

[Quantus]

What if Mab thought that Harry was the target, initially, and choose him as emissary so that she could make her role more official?

I think that would only but him at more risk, right?  Being tapped as a Winter Emmisary is what let all the Summer hitters start coming after him in SK, no?  It makes the whole thing more official but not in a helpful way that I see.   

See now, this is why I always assumed she hired Anduriel and that's the 'small favor' WK Harry is actually repaying later(I know, I know. Supposedly it's from an ancient two places at once debt, but I don't remember the wording and I like this idea anyway) So Mab had already made the first play by asking Nic to challenge the new baron of Chicago/Unseelie mortal. Later she's pissed because Nic undermined her accords by kidnapping the neutral negotiator It's never said she was mad about the initial challenge, that was an accepted thing she hired an emissary to handle. The thing is, Harry's her hidden ace weapon, everybody's really, and she specifically had reason to throw together that pressure cooker of violence waiting to happen, She'd recently had her home attacked by one of the Fallen. And what's the result at the end of this book? The presumed accused end up dead and missing by the end. Coincidence? Meh, I don't believe in them.

I think the catch on that one is that she stated outright when she "hired" Harry in SmF that she did not know "who took Marcone".  If she already knew it was Marcone she wouldnt have been able to state it so plainly, Id think. 

Personally, I think Mab's motivation toward Marcone in SmF has nothing to do with Harry at all (in the "he's not really the center of the universe" theme) and has more to do with Marcone being Vadderung's pet project in much the same way Harry is Mab's.

[Zaphodess]

Only catch I see off-hand is the timeline of Harry's hiring:  The Gruff's already began attacking Harry as the Winter Emissary /Before/ Marcone was Taken in the first place, and long before Mab would have chosen an emissary for that reason.   

That's actually been the reason I started considering Maeve, cause she could lie about Harry being Winter's Emissary and she might also have been able to disregard bargains and Fae restrictions.

Another possible angle: We might be making assumptions about Summer's motives. Sure, Titania wanted Harry dead because he killed her daughter. What if it wasn't her only motive? She could have had information about Nicodemus' plans that Mab didn't have. Mab was ready to kill Ivy rather than let the Archive fall into the hands of the Denarians (and indirectly to Nemesis). Titania might have been ready to let Marcone rot and kill Harry in order to prevent that as well. Revenge was just the cherry on top. Fighting a move by Nemesis might be enough to let a Faerie Queen get around the restriction about killing mortals.

[Quantus]

That's actually been the reason I started considering Maeve, cause she could lie about Harry being Winter's Emissary and she might also have been able to disregard bargains and Fae restrictions.

So if Im following you, you're no longer saying that Mab hired Harry to flush out Maeve's plan, but rather that Maeve Lied to Summer to sick them on Harry's trail, long before Mab got involved?  That seems like the sort of thing Mab should have noticed, when it became apparent that Summer was targeting him for no apparent reason but coincidentally only hours before she herself decided to hire him.

Im not giving up on it yet, but this seems to be unraveling a bit. 

Another possible angle: We might be making assumptions about Summer's motives. Sure, Titania wanted Harry dead because he killed her daughter. What if it wasn't her only motive? She could have had information about Nicodemus' plans that Mab didn't have. Mab was ready to kill Ivy rather than let the Archive fall into the hands of the Denarians (and indirectly to Nemesis). Titania might have been ready to let Marcone rot and kill Harry in order to prevent that as well. Revenge was just the cherry on top. Fighting a move by Nemesis might be enough to let a Faerie Queen get around the restriction about killing mortals.

So if Im following you, now you are suggesting that Mab was responsible for the attack at the train station rather than Maeve?

[Zaphodess]

So if Im following you, you're no longer saying that Mab hired Harry to flush out Maeve's plan, but rather that Maeve Lied to Summer to sick them on Harry's trail, long before Mab got involved?  That seems like the sort of thing Mab should have noticed, when it became apparent that Summer was targeting him for no apparent reason but coincidentally only hours before she herself decided to hire him.

Im not giving up on it yet, but this seems to be unraveling a bit. 

I was starting from the bad guys problem: The goal was to get the Archive, not (just) Marcone. The chosen method was to make it an Accords matter. Harry was the most likely to get the Archive as mediator. Problem was: Harry wouldn't have done anything if it was just Marcone on the line.  They needed to motivate Harry to become involved.

Mab would have been motivated to become involved if

a) Maeve was involved (nothing good could come from it)
b) Thorned Namshiel was involved
c) it was somehow clearly a Nemesis-driven plot
d) she cared enough about her Accords to protect the new guy
e) she had an interest in Marcone because of Vadderung in one way or another
f) she had an interest in Marcone himself - maybe a bargain with him
...

b) is unlikely imo, because she had no idea who abducted Marcone. d) isn't strong enough in that instance, cause the Accords don't protect you from conflict, they just set down the rules for how it's got to be played. If Marcone can't protect himself or make sure he has allies - his problem. e) and or f) are quite possible, but we don't have enough facts to prove it. My WAG tried to address the possibility of a) because it is also an instance of c) as Maeve was Nemfected and her mother knew it, tried to persuade her to let herself be cured, Maeve didn't seem to like the idea... I thought it was logical that Mab wouldn't let her run around completely free, unsupervised and not under observation during that time.

Mab didn't know the details of what the Enemy really wanted to achieve. So she was likely to call in a favor from Harry in order to get some more information. But: Harry had the right to refuse if he didn't like it, and he could be expected to refuse to save Marcone. Getting Summer involved achieved that he was motivated to accept the offer. This would have served Mab's interests as well as the Enemy group (including Maeve if she was on board). So it's a coin toss as to who managed to do it in what manner. But I think Mab is the least likely, she can't tell a direct lie and she'd probably have preferred another way to motivate Harry. Summer trying to kill him did not improve the chances of him being successful.

Technically, Summer shouldn't have been able to attack Harry before he was officially Winter's Emissary. He had the right to refuse, so not even Mab's intention to recruit him as such was good enough. But I think the Queens can make mistakes if they truly believe something. The initial attacks might have been possible if Titania believed him to be the Emissary already (a lie fed by Maeve to one of Titania's spies maybe or something Nic orchestrated). Titania either had very bad information or very good information (knowing and reacting to a great danger to reality) or the initial attacks wouldn't have been possible.

So if Im following you, now you are suggesting that Mab was responsible for the attack at the train station rather than Maeve?

That's actually a fact iirc. She admitted to it in the hospital chapel.

[Quantus]

I was starting from the bad guys problem: The goal was to get the Archive, not (just) Marcone. The chosen method was to make it an Accords matter. Harry was the most likely to get the Archive as mediator. Problem was: Harry wouldn't have done anything if it was just Marcone on the line.  They needed to motivate Harry to become involved.

Um, that's exactly what he Did, he called the Archive as a mediator over Marcone. He might not have gotten involved if the (obvious) enemy hadnt been the Denarians (whom he hates on a personal level), but

[/quote]
Mab didn't know the details of what the Enemy really wanted to achieve. So she was likely to call in a favor from Harry in order to get some more information. But: Harry had the right to refuse if he didn't like it, and he could be expected to refuse to save Marcone. Getting Summer involved achieved that he was motivated to accept the offer. This would have served Mab's interests as well as the Enemy group (including Maeve if she was on board). So it's a coin toss as to who managed to do it in what manner. But I think Mab is the least likely, she can't tell a direct lie and she'd probably have preferred another way to motivate Harry. Summer trying to kill him did not improve the chances of him being successful.
[/quote]
So you theory at this point is that MAB gave Summer a heads up that she was going to recruit Harry, in order for Harry to feel pressured enough to accept the Job.  How and Why would she do so before anyone else had made any moves to do anything?  What is her motivation to kick the ant-hill in the first place?  I thought you were initially suggesting that it was Maeve?

Technically, Summer shouldn't have been able to attack Harry before he was officially Winter's Emissary.

Not true.  SmF stated that they were able to track his Fire Magic (specifically the Fire) becuase he'd melded it with Lily's Fire Spell in PG during that whole Wellspring attack thing.  It was why Mad took away his Rod and memory of Fire Magic.  His status as Emmisary had nothing to do with their ability to track him, only their ability and/or motivation to actually go after him. 

He had the right to refuse, so not even Mab's intention to recruit him as such was good enough. But I think the Queens can make mistakes if they truly believe something. The initial attacks might have been possible if Titania believed him to be the Emissary already (a lie fed by Maeve to one of Titania's spies maybe or something Nic orchestrated). Titania either had very bad information or very good information (knowing and reacting to a great danger to reality) or the initial attacks wouldn't have been possible.

That still doesnt the fact that the first event in this whole escapaede was Titania's.  Your original theory had that reversed.

That's actually a fact iirc. She admitted to it in the hospital chapel.

She never admits it, or even anything Id call an implied admission; though Harry does jump to the that conclusion and asked her why she did it. 
Regardless, you JUST said you thought Maeve was actually behind the Hobs.  Which is it, and Why?

[wardenferry419]

I think that would only but him at more risk, right?  Being tapped as a Winter Emmisary is what let all the Summer hitters start coming after him in SK, no?  It makes the whole thing more official but not in a helpful way that I see.   
I think the catch on that one is that she stated outright when she "hired" Harry in SmF that she did not know "who took Marcone".  If she already knew it was Marcone she wouldnt have been able to state it so plainly, Id think. 

Personally, I think Mab's motivation toward Marcone in SmF has nothing to do with Harry at all (in the "he's not really the center of the universe" theme) and has more to do with Marcone being Vadderung's pet project in much the same way Harry is Mab's.

It is not helpful for Harry, but that was not a major concern to her. She loves to test his limits. And the added pressure of being both a target and an emissary could have pushed Harry to accept her WK offer. A more pressing concern would be to be  seen as following the letter of her accord.

[Zaphodess]

So you theory at this point is that MAB gave Summer a heads up that she was going to recruit Harry, in order for Harry to feel pressured enough to accept the Job.  How and Why would she do so before anyone else had made any moves to do anything?  What is her motivation to kick the ant-hill in the first place?  I thought you were initially suggesting that it was Maeve?

Ahem, nope. That's not what I said. I said she was the least likely of a number of possible candidates. I am exploring possibilities here, not proposing one single WAG.

Not true.  SmF stated that they were able to track his Fire Magic (specifically the Fire) becuase he'd melded it with Lily's Fire Spell in PG during that whole Wellspring attack thing.  It was why Mad took away his Rod and memory of Fire Magic.  His status as Emmisary had nothing to do with their ability to track him, only their ability and/or motivation to actually go after him.  That still doesnt the fact that the first event in this whole escapaede was Titania's.  Your original theory had that reversed.

Again, not what I wrote. I was talking about attacking, not their ability to track him.

She never admits it, or even anything Id call an implied admission; though Harry does jump to the that conclusion and asked her why she did it. 
Regardless, you JUST said you thought Maeve was actually behind the Hobs.  Which is it, and Why?

No, I didn't say I thought it was Maeve behind the Hobbs, I said it was Mab. Am I that bad at expressing myself?  I was extra careful to use names instead of pronouns ...

Mab never admits to the Hobbs attack, but she didn't deny it either and she answered Harry's question why she did it. It's also made clear in the text that the Hobbs were Mab's creatures. As her reasoning makes sense imo, I have no doubt about it that Mab was indeed behind it.

[Quantus]

Ahem, nope. That's not what I said. I said she was the least likely of a number of possible candidates. I am exploring possibilities here, not proposing one single WAG. ;)Again, not what I wrote. I was talking about attacking, not their ability to track him.

No, I didn't say I thought it was Maeve behind the Hobbs, I said it was Mab. Am I that bad at expressing myself?  I was extra careful to use names instead of pronouns ...

You said Maeve was behind the attack at the train station (ie the Hobbs, no?)  But then right after that you say that Mab sent the Hobbs in response to the attack at the train station.  So I am very confused. 

Mab never admits to the Hobbs attack, but she didn't deny it either and she answered Harry's question why she did it. It's also made clear in the text that the Hobbs were Mab's creatures. As her reasoning makes sense imo, I have no doubt about it that Mab was indeed behind it.

It made it clear that they were /winter/ creatures, not specifically Mab's as opposed to Maeve or anyone else that can leverage Winter creatures, theoretically up to and including whomever was giving orders to those Winter Spiders in TC. 

[Zaphodess]

You said Maeve was behind the attack at the train station (ie the Hobbs, no?)  But then right after that you say that Mab sent the Hobbs in response to the attack at the train station.  So I am very confused.  It made it clear that they were /winter/ creatures, not specifically Mab's as opposed to Maeve or anyone else that can leverage Winter creatures, theoretically up to and including whomever was giving orders to those Winter Spiders in TC.

Ok, I guess I didn't phrase that one very well. I thought that maybe Maeve had planned something on the train station or at the place Ivy intended to stay. An abduction or something like that. Mab sending the Hobbs could have been a last-ditch attempt to thwart her daughter's scheme.

The reason I think this might be the case is that the Hobbs attack was awfully gauche for Mab's standards. It smacks of desperation and not much time to plan.

[Quantus]

Ok, I guess I didn't phrase that one very well. I thought that maybe Maeve had planned something on the train station or at the place Ivy intended to stay. An abduction or something like that. Mab sending the Hobbs could have been a last-ditch attempt to thwart her daughter's scheme.

The reason I think this might be the case is that the Hobbs attack was awfully gauche for Mab's standards. It smacks of desperation and not much time to plan.

Ah, kk, Im with you now. 

I dont know, it feels like a simpler explanation that it was Maeve behind the Hobs (ie Awfully Gauche) and was working counter to Mab interests (in general or for something specific we've not seen), who in turn didnt fully explain to Harry because she didnt want dissension in the ranks to be known.  This was the novel she first had to start talking through Grimalkin, so she's aware of Maeve's Nemfection. 

[Kindler]

Maeve may have tried to get Summer to kill Harry early by claiming that he was the emissary; I can see that happening, and it almost worked. It would have, actually, and might've even had the added bonus of killing Molly and Charity during the first attack.

Mab might have then made his emissary status official to prevent Summer from seeing division within Winter. It seems to me that the Fae courts take great pains to posture and appear stronger than they are, especially to one another. If it looks like Maeve and Mab aren't on the same page, then Summer might perceive that as weakness, and strike, which Mab can't afford—her Knight is off the table, so the appearance that her Lady is working against her might be too tempting to pass up. I do think that Mab knows for a fact that Maeve is infected at this point; she's speaking entirely through Cait Sith, for the first time (as far as I recall; I'm finishing my annual reread, and have only hit Proven Guilty), and I've always understood her anger to be because she realized her daughter had been taken and there was no turning back. I figure that she didn't move against Maeve officially because (A) she was her daughter and didn't want to hurt her if possible, and (B) she wanted to project a unified front for as long as she could. She did push for Dresden to accept pretty hard in this one, harder than she had in the past, and may have dropped any pretenses and ordered him to kill Maeve as soon as possible if he had signed up.

In my opinion, Small Favor has almost as many unanswered questions as Proven Guilty because of all this kind of thing.