The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Bob's Personality, and Justin
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 15, 2017, 03:30:03 AM --- Errr what? Is the 3rd one the first cut off piece and bob and E bob are other two?
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Thats the theroy anyway. Bob said in DB that he'd already purged a bunch of Kemmler-time prior to Harry. In GS he said that Evil-bob was the result of his lopping off a chunk /after/ DB per Bob's interpretation of Harry's order. This implies two splits, so as many as three Bobs. Assuming each chunk was individually enough "mass" to survive on it's own.
--- Quote ---Well, what i'm trying to get across is something like this.
First Bob willfully(apparently) Choose to disgard not only a large chunk of who he was under kemmler, but a whole separate identity. Cause ya know, had to have a dualistic mind even under Kemmler to have had the thought separate from his Kemmler made one, Then of course he comes back.
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Chose, "or was compelled to." per Bob. Minor nitpick, carry on :)
--- Quote ---So bob 'kills' a part of himself, and suppresses the edges connected to those supposed dead memories, which might mean very little to a spirit MADE out of necropower, out of the power of being NOT itself.
In DB when Harry asks him to access those connected portions, Bob is essentially accessing his subconscious repressed memories, his shadow. This ties into the whole subconscious shadow/mirror access for N and associates. He touched a piece of himself that opened him up for a spiritual possession by a consciousness/will entirely different from his own.... Bob just got Nemfected by Evil Bob and we all watched it happen and didn't get what it meant.
Later he cuts off that bit too. But for reasons unknown, perhaps because he was known to Harry, Perhaps because of cowl, Evil Bob didn't just go rest in peace. It all lumped together into what amounts to the ghost of Bobs past life/ shadow. His precise inversion. This could be how all such dual beings originate, i.e. fae courts. Such as it would give an in reality balance to the 'shadow' keeping Nfluencers at bay. I think so, also, more than one or two wizards now know of bob and think of him as more than a magical springboard. I'm thinking Bob's basically a miniature deity as far as pure spirit is concerned. He's not a ghost after all. His identity as it is solidified the more people believe a certain thing about him or connect him to the same identity of 'bob' and effected by the skull prohibition, but harry proved the name trumps the skulls enchantments in power/significance.
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Hmm, interesting theory. Not sure I buy the Nemfection connection just yet, but Im open to the possibility. For now it just seems odd that (if Im hearing you) Bob was carrying around a Dormnant Nemfection vector for some years and Harry "woke it up"? No argument against it, mostly since we have very little idea of how Nemesis works, though we've been promised more explanation eventually.
One side thing that may or may not affect your overall theory, but it's a string Id like to pull: I never considered Bob a"being of pure necromancy" in any of his incarnations. If pushed Id probably have said he was a being of normal Magic and so Life by definition, if NN spirit Energy more than actual Native Life. But he clearing has/had some capability to manipulate Necromantic energy....I odnt know man, I may have to go back to the taxonomic drawing board on Spirits.
jonas:
--- Quote ---I never considered Bob a"being of pure necromancy" in any of his incarnations. If pushed Id probably have said he was a being of normal Magic and so Life by definition, if NN spirit Energy more than actual Native Life. But he clearing has/had some capability to manipulate Necromantic energy....I odnt know man, I may have to go back to the taxonomic drawing board on Spirits.
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From what Bob explains Kemmler did to him and E Bob actually using Necromancy, he seems to run off of the different energy? That's always been part of what I assumed so screwed with Bob's sensibilities vs what he was as Kemmler's pet. Even the way Bob's eyes are portrayed to change, because he might not have a soul, but he has an internal energy. E Bob actually uses Necro energy against Harry directly. Only way to do that is to have access to it. Normally, i'd agree with you completely about him being a being of positive magic, but that's why I see the contrast with Evil Bob.
--- Quote ---Bob was carrying around a Dormnant Nemfection vector for some years and Harry "woke it up"?
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Sort of yes. More like he made it when he killed a piece of himself and later opened the way back(beacon stye, which is just a form of thaumaturgy really) by accessing a part of himself that was just like it. He, a 'living' spirit, accidently allowed himself to be possessed by an 'undead' spirit. if that doesn't make it sound more complicated lol. Basing it off of the fae being spirits of elements, things in the real world vs the GS supposition spirits that used to be aren't supposed to mess around with reality. There's something there, a thread to pull at to take your favorite phrase lol. Something that wraps up a lot of little things in the fae being partially of this world vs say... a purely manifested Demon Or creature of undeath. Demons can't die here because they don't 'live' here, like the need to chase Agatha to her own domain in GP. Also why Walkers are unkillable I think, they're not from here, they don't use rules of the living. But they might be using rules of the dead? the imprint of what used to be echoing across creation itself? all those Old Gods, literally the Old Gods are still remembered by the universe, still have an imprint to fill up. Hwwb4 and his 'deeper' but not bigger than Mab reference is a good example of necro keyed words applied directly to outsiders.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 15, 2017, 01:59:21 PM ---From what Bob explains Kemmler did to him and E Bob actually using Necromancy, he seems to run off of the different energy? That's always been part of what I assumed so screwed with Bob's sensibilities vs what he was as Kemmler's pet. Even the way Bob's eyes are portrayed to change, because he might not have a soul, but he has an internal energy. E Bob actually uses Necro energy against Harry directly. Only way to do that is to have access to it. Normally, i'd agree with you completely about him being a being of positive magic, but that's why I see the contrast with Evil Bob.
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Im more thinking that I have to separate my idea of magical energy from Spirits themselves. Which admittedly are made of a variety of things, but in the case of both SoI and Ghosts that's basically just Memories. Im thinking now that Spirits are perpendicular to the Chi/Necromancy spectrum, that they can use and manipulate both just like wizards can.
--- Quote ---Sort of yes. More like he made it when he killed a piece of himself and later opened the way back(beacon stye, which is just a form of thaumaturgy really) by accessing a part of himself that was just like it. He, a 'living' spirit, accidently allowed himself to be possessed by an 'undead' spirit. if that doesn't make it sound more complicated lol.
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Ok I can get behind that, as you say it should/could easily act as a thaumaturgic beacon. My only followup question is whether you think the missing piece found bob as soo as harry woke up the suppressed bits (ie happened in the basement) or if it only happened later on after Cowl got his hands on Bob and needed the full memory of the Word/Darkhallow? There's a lot of interaction with Bob after NecroBob's first appearance that doesnt make any hint of a possessing spirit or change in Nature.
--- Quote ---Basing it off of the fae being spirits of elements, things in the real world vs the GS supposition spirits that used to be aren't supposed to mess around with reality. There's something there, a thread to pull at to take your favorite phrase lol. Something that wraps up a lot of little things in the fae being partially of this world vs say... a purely manifested Demon Or creature of undeath. Demons can't die here because they don't 'live' here, like the need to chase Agatha to her own domain in GP. Also why Walkers are unkillable I think, they're not from here, they don't use rules of the living. But they might be using rules of the dead? the imprint of what used to be echoing across creation itself? all those Old Gods, literally the Old Gods are still remembered by the universe, still have an imprint to fill up. Hwwb4 and his 'deeper' but not bigger than Mab reference is a good example of necro keyed words applied directly to outsiders.
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I dont think so in several places (mostly competing theories rather than actual counter-proof), Ill try to got through them:
1)It was only ghosts that arent supposed to mess around with reality, and even that is only Mort's opinion (Uriel seems to think otherwise, based on his recruiting efforts), so I dont think it applies to other types of more pure Spirits like Bob (ie. always was a spirit as opposed to a remnant ghost).
2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each. Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.
3)While I do think that Black Magic taint is Outsider related and so is tangentially connected to Necromancy, I dont think Necromantic Energy itself is from the Outside; it's just the flip-side negative of an existing "positive" energy. It's in the same boat as Cold, Vacuum, etc. It's a Power defined by Absence.
Kindler:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 15, 2017, 02:20:29 PM ---
2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each. Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.
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I haven't heard this before (I lurk a lot more than I post), and I think this is kind of brilliant. It can open up wider story potential for Mirror, Mirror, too.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 15, 2017, 02:20:29 PM ---Im more thinking that I have to separate my idea of magical energy from Spirits themselves. Which admittedly are made of a variety of things, but in the case of both SoI and Ghosts that's basically just Memories. Im thinking now that Spirits are perpendicular to the Chi/Necromancy spectrum, that they can use and manipulate both just like wizards can.
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You put chi in the same boat as necromancy o.O? Haa *clears throat* uhh, why/how? Might be an overall view on our perceptions of magic being different. But pulling it full circle with how I see Bob and his choice, how i'm starting to see everything with this 'choice' thing broken down. Everytime a wizard uses Magic or necromancy, he's doing a very small impression of rising and falling on the mortal level. Soulfire vs Hellfire, Magic vs Necromancy? When angels do it they're basically changing their food/fuel, the angel we've met runs on positive soul stuff, the Denarian fallen are largely seen to run off of the fear and chaos they create with their host's. So this stark contrast o positive forces vs negative forces I've looked at as "how does it apply across the DF? where is the toggle/choice back and forth?"
--- Quote ---Ok I can get behind that, as you say it should/could easily act as a thaumaturgic beacon. My only followup question is whether you think the missing piece found bob as soo as harry woke up the suppressed bits (ie happened in the basement) or if it only happened later on after Cowl got his hands on Bob and needed the full memory of the Word/Darkhallow? There's a lot of interaction with Bob after NecroBob's first appearance that doesnt make any hint of a possessing spirit or change in Nature.
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That's a fair question, and is probably as hard to say as, Is Cat Sith under N's control before or only after harry outs him and Makes N takes him entirely? I'd say, Necro bob still existed in part in Bob, but as soon as he manifested, Evil Bob was there, if only as a fly on the wall/whisper.
--- Quote --- I dont think so in several places (mostly competing theories rather than actual counter-proof), Ill try to got through them:
1)It was only ghosts that arent supposed to mess around with reality, and even that is only Mort's opinion (Uriel seems to think otherwise, based on his recruiting efforts), so I dont think it applies to other types of more pure Spirits like Bob (ie. always was a spirit as opposed to a remnant ghost).
2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each. Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.
3)While I do think that Black Magic taint is Outsider related and so is tangentially connected to Necromancy, I dont think Necromantic Energy itself is from the Outside; it's just the flip-side negative of an existing "positive" energy. It's in the same boat as Cold, Vacuum, etc. It's a Power defined by Absence.
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1It doesn't apply to Bob, but that's my point, bob is a 'living' spirit in so much as he has some basis here, air elemental if nothing else. But not everything has a foothold here in reality. Here it get's harder to define, because early in the series demons were closer to outsider than later on it seems, so the idea behind it mutated slightly. Now it's a bit more complex with Goodman's proposed rent. Have to come back to this one I think...
2 Ah, but Uriel is just plain Bigger, upon bigger and BIGGER! lol. He can destroy whole galaxies.
Looking back at my idea Bob killed a piece of himself, I think angels are the complete opposite. Instead of Breaking down part of their identity or only manifesting inside reality in part, they are a mask/bearer of the entire power of an immortal. N can't get them in their 'whole' state because their already all their. all the pieces. Going on the Grand Cosmology make up,
A. There is only one of all outside/ immortals
B. Such whole beings are broken down inside reality into smaller mantles/identities
C. All smaller Identities are subject to the connections to their unborn parts. Nemfection, as the alloy of their nature changes with the bigger source.
So Hwwb4, Fearbringer, Nemesis itself, is all a result of parts of mostly the fae courts whose pieces were killed but not reincorporated.
I feel I did a really bad job explaining that one :*( let me know?
3That's what outside is to me, th opposite of existence but defined in spirit because of the way DF mechanics work. Outside is the very idea of being not, of not existing manifest(yea, humans cause it now lol). The connection there is those idea's start connecting to others, things that are not, things that used to be, Oblivion itself. It's an example of the power that exists OUT there just as Mordite is an example of matter that doesn't exist.
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