Author Topic: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)  (Read 85608 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #150 on: August 17, 2017, 08:51:30 PM »
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You mean during the year that Mab had kept him prisoner and been actively modifying all communications specifically to instill Mistrust in his allies (like Butters).  Or do you mean when she disabused him of it On Stage in SG??
Who is "she" Murphy or Mab?
. Read pages 26 through 30 of Skin Game, Murphy gives Harry the big lecture about isolating himself from his friends...  Her attitude is that Harry purposely did that, and she is worried about him.. If she knew the skinny, she wouldn't have given the lecture..
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You seem to be projecting motivation there.  He appeard to lay out everything out to murphy in the off-screen moments prior to SG Ch 2.  You are assuming that a) harry didnt mention Mabs interference, b) that she didnt ask, and c) that IF she didnt ask it was from a lack of Caring about him rather than trusting him to have his secrets (which is precisely what she was doing the entire book).

Apparently he didn't lay anything out and Murphy didn't ask, again read pages 26 -30..  A] No, it appears that Harry didn't mention Mab.. B] From the text, no, Murphy didn't ask, she assumed some psychological explanation about Harry isolating himself on the island from his friends and family on purpose..  It may not be a lack of caring, but it is idiotic amateur psychologist at work.. C] Bingo, if she truly trusted him to have his secrets... Then she'd truly trust him to have a good reason for those secrets, ergo not give him shit in the form of a guilt trip about his friends being so concerned because he purposely isolated himself on Demonreach for a year...  Just a "missed you Harry what's the plan?" Would do  nicely.if she truly trusted him...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:59:28 AM by Mira »

Offline deflated

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #151 on: August 17, 2017, 10:48:17 PM »
Sometimes, I suspect that Knights are chosen not because they already are good people, but that they have the potential to be good people. 

Uriel explicitly states that his interest in the events of SG was to offer the chance redemption. I'd be very surprised if opportunities for growth, improvement and undoing mistakes wasn't behind all of the actions of TWG's agents.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #152 on: August 18, 2017, 04:10:03 AM »
I mean, I thought Titania confirmed it; what else would make her admit that her daughter had to die?  And we have WOJ that Sidhe of queen or Erlking level shouldnt be capable of /considering/ destroying the Natural Order. 


No doubt there was something radically wrong with Aurora.  But I'm not absolutely sure it was Nemfection.  IIRC, all Titania said to Harry was something to the effect of "I know what she had become", or something along those lines.  Not specific.

I'm not saying it wasn't Nemfection, either, I'm just saying I'm not convinced either way.

Offline Con

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #153 on: August 18, 2017, 11:39:25 AM »
Hmmm I'm half and half on Murphy at the moment but to be honest, it started for me when she became "fun buddies" with a mass murdering mercenary. It seemed like such a hypocrisy.

Recently though Murphy has had almost as much of a risk of losing her soul as Harry particularly during Ghost Story. Working with Marcone, preparing to take vigilante justice on the people who shot up her house.

Seems like she made a deal with the devil herself to save her city as much as Harry did to save his daughter.

Whether or not she's been supportive of Harry or adding to his guilt trip. I've seen evidence of both. Cold Days she was pretty cautious and wary of Harry.

Skin Game though she gave Butters a dressing down, for his suspiscions, and acknowledged that Dresden was fighting for his soul, she was also considerably relieved when Harry came back from talking with Michael and was a bit more like his old self.

Let's not forget ID Harry's insights into Murphy's psyche regarding Harry.  She's got a few pent up issue's in regards to relationships so judges herself harshly on them:
1. Dropkick deadbeat older husband who was dying of cancer and didn't tell her.
2. Second husband who wanted a family which she didn't, which anyone would have mixed feelings and doubts about, who then left her and went for her younger, better looking, bit of a ditz of a little sister.
3.International mass murdering supernatual assassin who killed the man she love's.
4. Wizard Winter Knight with lot of tension history, possibly loosing his soul and becoming Mab's personal hit man.

Lotta baggage their.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #154 on: August 18, 2017, 12:33:50 PM »
Who is "she" Murphy or Mab?
Murphy disabused butters of yes distrust, or at least made a damn strong effort.  Which is a far cry from piling on his distrust or intentionally standing aside, you you suggested. 
[/quote]
. Read pages 26 through 30 of Skin Game, Murphy gives Harry the big lecture about isolating himself from his friends...  Her attitude is that Harry purposely did that, and she is worried about him.. If she knew the skinny, she wouldn't have given the lecture..
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Looking at them right now.  She is WORRIED about him, yes.  Precisely!  Which is a far cry from the complete lack of caring you were basing your argument on. 

Apparently he didn't lay anything out and Murphy didn't ask, again read pages 26 -30..  A] No, it appears that Harry didn't mention Mab..
[/quote]
My whole point is that we DONT get the whole conversation.  You cannot start drawing conclusions from what Murphy DIDNT say when you dont have any clue what she did or didnt say except for the very end of the conversation.

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B] From the text, no, Murphy didn't ask, she assumed some psychological explanation about Harry isolating himself on the island from his friends and family on purpose.. 
And she wasnt wrong.  And she helped him.  Still not getting this Kick-him-while-he's-Down animosity you want to be there?
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It may not be a lack of caring, but it is idiotic amateur psychologist at work..
Im not saying that Michael didnt do a much better job a few chapters later (by calling harry an arrogant dope), but you simply cant point to scenes of her trying to be a good friend and say that's evidence of her not caring or not wanting to be his friend.
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C] Bingo, if she truly trusted him to have his secrets...
Which she /did/, every step of the way. 
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Then she'd truly trust him to have a good reason for those secrets,
Which she /did/, every step of the way.
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ergo not give him shit in the form of a guilt trip about his friends being so concerned because he purposely isolated himself on Demonreach for a year... 
Here's where you go off the rails, I think.  Looking at it right now and that's not even close to what happened.  They are both talking about the future, about whether he'll keep his pets, ever actually try to be a father, all that good stuff that may or may not be possible after the current crisis. That's kind off what good friends do.  Reminding somebody that they have a support structure is not a guilt trip.
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Just a "missed you Harry what's the plan?" Would do  nicely.if she truly trusted him...
I kind of expect the "missed you Harry whats the plan" to happen closer to the beginning of the conversation, maybe near the opening of the door, and not at the very end which is all we saw. 

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Offline Kindler

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #155 on: August 18, 2017, 01:36:10 PM »
No, truth is he couldn't he had been mostly dead for half of that year and in rehab for the rest...  She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY!  YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?"  But no, about her feeling betrayed because he didn't call or write....

Murphy didn't know about Harry being held by Mab. When he tells her, she even points out that it's really unlikely that Harry couldn't have figured out how to contact her. Dresden's narration agrees that yeah, if he had really wanted to, he probably could have, but didn't. Thomas is the only one who really has the reaction a lot of fans probably want, and I get it, but hers is perfectly consistent with her character.

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Point here is, she knows she shouldn't wield one, her instincts are right...  But she brings it anyway... Does she even ask Harry's opinion on whether or not that was a good idea considering?  No...  Did she trust that he might agree with her? No..  Instead she hides it like a fat lady hiding a candy wrapper thinking no one would notice..  For all her smarts, she displayed her ignorance because she should have known that Nick was listening in and would set her up.. Harry realized it the minute she pulled the Sword out that he didn't know she had with her, but it was too late then..

She doesn't have to ask Harry for permission. First, she has the swords already, and Dresden has accepted that by Skin Game. He doesn't say "Bring the swords," he says, "Are you going to bring the swords?"

Second, she really doesn't have to ask him if it's a good idea, because he had already told her it was.

Skin Game, from pages 40-41 on my Nook:
(click to show/hide)

Anyway, Harry makes his opinion clear. He thinks they should be used, Murphy says she has to be careful.

And, again, her making a mistake doesn't mean she makes that mistake out of distrust. I didn't say that she was smart to hide it—in fact, I said quite the opposite. I'm not sure what Nic listening in has to do with anything; he didn't hear anything about the Sword, because she didn't say anything about it.


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Not cheerleader, but supportive...  If you have a alcoholic that has stayed off the booze for a year, do you berate him because he went off to kick the habit?  Or do you say something to the effect that he looks great or keep up the good work you are there for him?  That's what friends do...

I'm not sure which point you're referring to. In Cold Days, Harry isn't an alcoholic who laid off booze for a year, he's an alcoholic who's been sipping amaretto for the past hour and insisting that he's fine, and she's trying to make sure he doesn't have his car keys. In Skin Game, I don't see any berating at all.

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Evidence?  The fact that she keeps reminding him he could turn into a monster... That means she thinks he could still turn into a monster... No, my friend she doesn't completely trust that he won't.

She mentioned it at the beginning and the end of Cold Days, because Harry keeps saying so. He arranged his own suicide because he was terrified that he might turn into one. She then says that she's afraid because she might like it too much.

And yet she spent the rest of Cold Days right there with him, trusting him enough to charge at the Wild Hunt, then, you know, drive a motorcycle across Lake Michigan.

In Skin Game, the only time (that I can recall) that she comes close to saying "Oh my God Harry you're going to murder us all" is when they first get to the slaughterhouse, and Harry starts creepily listing off reasons not to murder someone with zero context. They see someone, and the temperature in the car drops, and Harry starts saying, "Reason one: witnesses," and so on. Even then, her response isn't to, you know, run, or say "Harry you're an animal and should be locked up," it's the following:
Skin Game, page 45-46 on my Nook:
(click to show/hide)

In the above, she's acknowledging that he has a problem, which, to continue with the alcoholism comparison, is kind of important. Harry is explaining his experience, and she agrees that it's bad, because, you know, it is. He just spent a few minutes talking himself out of murder. Then she tells him that he can figure out a way to get out of it. She's telling an alcoholic that he needs to get help.

In what way is that not supportive? If I were to read Harry's conversation with Michael cynically, it's not a stretch to say that Michael is simply enabling him. Harry tells him he's worried he might change. Michael just says, "You won't. You're Harry!" I get it, and Michael is probably my favorite character, but it's a little dangerous to feed that kind of thinking for too long.

It makes Harry feel better, and he probably needed to hear something like it at that particularly low moment (less than an hour after he failed to protect yet another innocent man) but I think most people would agree that just cruising along as he has is not a long-term solution. Harry needs to lose the Winter Knight's mantle, or he's not going to last too much longer.

Don't get me wrong, that's not the way I read the conversation, really, but my point is that pretty much any conversation, viewed cynically enough, is bad for Harry.

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Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum?  She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either.

She disabuses him of it on the page, in front of us. We get to see her do it. We don't see what happens between Cold Days and Skin Game, so we don't know what took place between them. Murphy's reaction to Butters doesn't indicate one way or another that she's heard any of it before.

We do know Butters's reasons for distrusting him, and he doesn't mention Murphy at all.

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #156 on: August 18, 2017, 10:38:21 PM »
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Murphy didn't know about Harry being held by Mab. When he tells her, she even points out that it's really unlikely that Harry couldn't have figured out how to contact her. Dresden's narration agrees that yeah, if he had really wanted to, he probably could have, but didn't. Thomas is the only one who really has the reaction a lot of fans probably want, and I get it, but hers is perfectly consistent with her character.

Could he?  Or because Murphy laid a trip on him he goes into woulda shoulda mode, but if he couldn't get hold of Molly, how likely is it he could get a hold of anyone else?  In fact I seem to remember him wondering why he hadn't heard from anyone...  Another point not mentioned, I believe Thomas did travel to the island during the year, so Harry could have written a note I suppose, but better yet, Murphy could have hitched a ride if she and her friends were so concerned.. 
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She doesn't have to ask Harry for permission. First, she has the swords already, and Dresden has accepted that by Skin Game. He doesn't say "Bring the swords," he says, "Are you going to bring the swords?"

Second, she really doesn't have to ask him if it's a good idea, because he had already told her it was.
Actually, she has no authority to say anything about the Swords, since she isn't their custodian, she has them, but she isn't in charge of them.. This could be one reason why they hadn't been used since Harry disappeared at the end of Changes..  Granted it could be no suitable candidate has showed up...  Harry asks her because he trusts her and doesn't realize back in Cold Days that she lied to him about being the new custodian..
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Anyway, Harry makes his opinion clear. He thinks they should be used, Murphy says she has to be careful.

And, again, her making a mistake doesn't mean she makes that mistake out of distrust. I didn't say that she was smart to hide it—in fact, I said quite the opposite. I'm not sure what Nic listening in has to do with anything; he didn't hear anything about the Sword, because she didn't say anything about it.

  She is still lying to him by omission...  Harry is still the true Custodian, whether he possessed them or not, he knows they need to be on the mission..  Her reasoning for not take them is sound, but the problem is she isn't admitting that she really doesn't have a say here..  Nick listening in has EVERYTHING to do with it, he knows exactly how she feels and that for some unexplained reason she thought she could hide the Sword and no one would be the wiser and he set her up... Two birds if you will, he took out a Holy Sword, and an effective fighter to go with Harry...
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I'm not sure which point you're referring to. In Cold Days, Harry isn't an alcoholic who laid off booze for a year, he's an alcoholic who's been sipping amaretto for the past hour and insisting that he's fine, and she's trying to make sure he doesn't have his car keys. In Skin Game, I don't see any berating at all.
How would she know?  She never asked, she just assumed..  THAT is trust...  She never asked Harry if he had the mantle under control or was better at contriving it now.. She just made assumptions.. 
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In Skin Game, the only time (that I can recall) that she comes close to saying "Oh my God Harry you're going to murder us all" is when they first get to the slaughterhouse, and Harry starts creepily listing off reasons not to murder someone with zero context. They see someone, and the temperature in the car drops, and Harry starts saying, "Reason one: witnesses," and so on. Even then, her response isn't to, you know, run, or say "Harry you're an animal and should be locked up," it's the following:

Wrong... It may be cold blooded but going back to his self control exercises during the year, this is how he controls the mantle so it doesn't take over...   A form of yoga breathing exercises or counting to ten...
Her answer isn't practical because she doesn't really understand... Harry just cannot take the mantle off like an old tee-shirt..
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In the above, she's acknowledging that he has a problem, which, to continue with the alcoholism comparison, is kind of important. Harry is explaining his experience, and she agrees that it's bad, because, you know, it is. He just spent a few minutes talking himself out of murder. Then she tells him that he can figure out a way to get out of it. She's telling an alcoholic that he needs to get help.

But Harry has already helped himself... He has found a way to talk himself out of irrational violent acts that the mantle may push...  That is what any addict does really, the cravings don't go away, the addict merely finds a way to cope with them.  It ain't easy, that is why so many back slide or go off the wagon after years of sobriety..  Even in these times there is no magic pill to make it all go away... Again Murphy doesn't have a clue... She is well meaning, but she isn't helping either.
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We do know Butters's reasons for distrusting him, and he doesn't mention Murphy at all.

Murphy has been his leader for the past year, I find really hard to believe that she didn't have any clue... If she didn't she isn't a very good leader... Maybe that's what is bothering her and why she lied about controlling the Swords, she needed maintain some power.

Offline raidem

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #157 on: August 19, 2017, 04:30:48 AM »
The alternative to nemfection for aurora is that her proximity and closeness with humans allowed her greater freedom of action outside the restraints that normally apply to the queens.  And that willingness to embrace revolutionary ideas would be what titania learned aurora had become.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Con

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #158 on: August 19, 2017, 05:36:16 AM »
The alternative to nemfection for aurora is that her proximity and closeness with humans allowed her greater freedom of action outside the restraints that normally apply to the queens.  And that willingness to embrace revolutionary ideas would be what titania learned aurora had become.

Pretty sure Rashid confirmed Aurora was nemfected when he was explaining it in Cold Days. I'll confirm when I get home I have their conversation book marked.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #159 on: August 19, 2017, 06:01:41 AM »
Hmmm I'm half and half on Murphy at the moment but to be honest, it started for me when she became "fun buddies" with a mass murdering mercenary. It seemed like such a hypocrisy.

For people who want to understand how Murphy's outlook has changed over the years, that incident at that time is actually high instructive.  It's not precisely hypocritical...because Karrin was no longer who she had been.

The first few books showed us a Karrin Murphy in denial.  She was willing to admit the reality of what she had seen and heard, that the supernatural was real.  She was also realistic enough to recognize that it was dangerous, to really recognize it, I mean, in her guts, which put her one up on Susan, who thought it was all a big game deep down.

But at the same time, she was in denial on two vital levels.  She would not admit to herself just how deeply the supernatural scared her, because Karrin was a person who needed control and the supernatural was uncontrollable.  She was smart enough to recognize that uncontrollability, but unable to admit to herself that she feared that.  Her fear tended to manifest as short temper and anger.

Related to that was her reliance on the Law as a comfort belief, almost verging on a religious tenet.  She desperately wanted to believe in the Law as something that applied to everyone, that protected everyone, that it could encompass the supernatural and that the supernatural could be handled within its framework..which was sheer, unadulterated nonsense.  But her fear and need for control and reliance on that comfort belief blocked her from admitting that to herself.

The big blow up came with Ron Carmichael's death, which was very nearly a direct consequence of this self-deception on Murphy's part.  After that came a period over a few books where the 'old Karrin' would periodically surface, and get knocked down by reality, and the 'new Karrin', humbler, more realistic, (and a maybe a little more broken) gradually supplanted her.

In Blood Rites, there's a scene where she and Harry meet Kincaid, that is key to understanding her transition.  She and Harry are about to engage in vigilante work, wiping out a scourge of Black Vampires...and their human thralls.  Now, to my knowledge, there's no law against destroying Black Vampires, since the legislators don't believe in them.  But killing their thralls, with planning beforehand...that's Murder One.  Think about that for a minute.

Karrin thought about it, and couldn't find a way out.  She couldn't protect the public from the vampires without going through the thralls, which meant committing first degree murder, by definition.  The law makes no exceptions for supernatural compulsions.  But if she doesn't do it the vampires are going to keep feeding and making new vampires and at least the theoretical potential for an exponential growth curve exists.  Mavra probably wouldn't do that, of course, but she could, and even if she didn't her scourge is going to cause tremendous pain, suffering and death.

Murphy had to work with a professional killer who impersonated an officer, because she couldn't do it on her own.  She had to engage in multiple major felonies.  She hated it, but couldn't find the loophole, because there was no loophole.  She even tells Harry about her inner battle.

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Murphy: "I'm trying to adjust.  In my head, I think what we're doing is just about the only thing we responsibly can.  But I've been a peace officer since before I could drink, and this kind of cowboy thing feels...wrong.  It isn't what a good cop does."

Harry: "Depends on the cop, I think.  Mavra and her scourge are above the law, Murph, in every sense that matters.  The only way they're going to get stopped is if someone steps up and takes them down."

<skip a bit>

Murphy: The vampires aren't the problem.  I can fight that.  Glad to.  But there are going to be people around them, too.  I don't know if I can pull the trigger when there are going to be people around who could get hurt.  I signed on to protect them, not to trap them in a cross-fire."

Harry muses that there wasn't much he could say to that last.  Because there isn't.  There's no loophole and no way out for Karrin, unless she wants to turn around and walk away.  Even then, she'd be committing felonies by not preventing Harry and Kincaid from doing what she knew they intended to do (not that she could realistically stop them, the wheels were turning).

Nor is her reaction unreasonable.  A common first step down the road to corruption is rationalization of doing something you know you should not do.  That wasn't the case here, the necessity really was what it was, but the pattern of thought is similar.

Just before they struck, the Old Karrin put in a last desperate appearance.  She pointed out to Harry that she could arrange to have cops from all over the area descend on the lair of the scourge, hundreds of officers, heavily armed.  They could do it legally...but Harry had to point out what would really happen if they tried that.  She can't tell them the truth and if she lies and they cops go in blind, a bunch of good cops die or worse.  Further, even if the Law wins the day and wipes out Mavra's scourge and forces her to flee, the supernatural is going to hit back...and when they do, the 'victorious' cops are beyond screwed, and so are their families, their friends, etc.  They have neither the knowledge nor the resources to protect themselves.

(Which I suspect is one reason why a lot of the older Council members consider Harry's public stance and involvement with mortal authorities not just unwise, but immoral.)

She can be a cop, but to remain that at heart she must turn her back and walk away from the supernatural entirely, close her eyes.  She can fight to protect Chicago from the monsters...but to do so means she's no longer, at heart, really a cop.  Being a cop is just her cover, in that case, for her vigilante activities.  The conflict tears at who she is, and forces her to become someone else.  Blood Rites is when she makes that transition, after that the Old Karrin occasionally pops up, but never for long and less and less often.

The trip to Hawaii with Kincaid is hypocritical for the old Karrin.  It's not for the new one, because the new one isn't a cop anymore, not at heart.  It's also a sign that she's accepting that she's no longer who she was.  Of course, that's not all of it.  It's also about fighting her attraction to Harry and dealing with discovering that her ex-husband is now her brother-in-law and so forth.


Online KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #160 on: August 19, 2017, 09:10:42 AM »
She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY!  YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?"

That was weird, wasn't it?  Molly was the only one who knew Harry wasn't dead.  Andi was right to wonder if she was dealing with Harry or an impostor.  Thomas' reaction; his anger, was entirely believable.  Murphy said she heard about explosions.  Actually these are her exact words:
Harry -  "Yeah," I said. "How'd you find me?"
Karrin - "Scanner. The last time a bomb went off in this town, it was in your office building. I hear another one goes off in the street, and then reports of explosions and gunfire out over the lake just after dawn this morning. Math wasn't hard to do."

Seriously?  With the Fomor, the White Court and Marcone all staking a claim to the city those noises could have signified battles between any two or all three of those parties.  I think a more believable reaction might have been if Murphy had mentioned the bomb, explosions and gunfire and said that she "hoped that only Harry Dresden could be at the heart of such chaos." 

There was one other thing missing from Karrin Murphy's reaction to seeing Harry alive again.  Karrin Murphy didn't say, "I'm glad your back" or "I'm glad your alive Harry."  Even with her concerns about what Mab might have done to him, you'd think Murphy might have expressed some positive emotion at seeing Harry in the flesh again.  Instead she went straight to the accusations.   

Actually, now that I think about it, Butters reaction to a living, breathing Harry was also a bit strange.  You'd think that after talking to someone's ghost you would want to know how they got their body back.  In Butters defense it could be argued that he was preoccupied sewing up Harry's wounds at the time, but I'm surprised that Butters; or anyone else for that matter, didn't press Harry for any details about his out of body experiences.  Granted Harry's response couldn't have gone much farther than, "I don't have time to explain it all now, if we survive the next twenty-four hours you can ask all the questions you want and I'll answer as best I can," or something like that.

I feel like there is an entire conversation; or maybe two, missing from Cold Days that Jim either decided not to write or did write and decided to scrap or drastically shorten. 


« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 09:15:58 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #161 on: August 19, 2017, 09:34:54 AM »
That was weird, wasn't it? 
I dunno. She must have been pretty confused and wary. She had a hard time accepting Harry's death and finally managed to in GS. Then the guy seems to be back. It could have been an impostor after all. I think she didn't trust her own feelings and reverted to safe mode. For her, that's going on the offensive.

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #162 on: August 19, 2017, 11:23:06 AM »
That was weird, wasn't it?  Molly was the only one who knew Harry wasn't dead.  Andi was right to wonder if she was dealing with Harry or an impostor.  Thomas' reaction; his anger, was entirely believable.  Murphy said she heard about explosions.  Actually these are her exact words:
Harry -  "Yeah," I said. "How'd you find me?"
Karrin - "Scanner. The last time a bomb went off in this town, it was in your office building. I hear another one goes off in the street, and then reports of explosions and gunfire out over the lake just after dawn this morning. Math wasn't hard to do."

Seriously?  With the Fomor, the White Court and Marcone all staking a claim to the city those noises could have signified battles between any two or all three of those parties.  I think a more believable reaction might have been if Murphy had mentioned the bomb, explosions and gunfire and said that she "hoped that only Harry Dresden could be at the heart of such chaos." 

There was one other thing missing from Karrin Murphy's reaction to seeing Harry alive again.  Karrin Murphy didn't say, "I'm glad your back" or "I'm glad your alive Harry."  Even with her concerns about what Mab might have done to him, you'd think Murphy might have expressed some positive emotion at seeing Harry in the flesh again.  Instead she went straight to the accusations.   

Actually, now that I think about it, Butters reaction to a living, breathing Harry was also a bit strange.  You'd think that after talking to someone's ghost you would want to know how they got their body back.  In Butters defense it could be argued that he was preoccupied sewing up Harry's wounds at the time, but I'm surprised that Butters; or anyone else for that matter, didn't press Harry for any details about his out of body experiences.  Granted Harry's response couldn't have gone much farther than, "I don't have time to explain it all now, if we survive the next twenty-four hours you can ask all the questions you want and I'll answer as best I can," or something like that.

I feel like there is an entire conversation; or maybe two, missing from Cold Days that Jim either decided not to write or did write and decided to scrap or drastically shorten.

I agree about Butters, because Bob in Ghost Story also had a good idea that Harry might not be dead..  Or rather something was very strange because Harry was a naked soul not a spirit.   But that stuff is even beyond Bob's pay grade so he might not have talked about it with Butters... Or if he did, his information may have been influenced by his own fears of the Winter Court  and Winter Knights in general.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2017, 04:56:58 PM »
A few of you have hit the points I wanted to already, so I'm not gonna retread much. I will say this:

A. Mira: Butters is an adult. I think he might even be a couple years older than Murphy. Murphy is not in any way responsible for his opinions or actions, especially when we see her directly trying to change his opinion and Butters stubbornly keeping to distrusting Dresden.

Butters is not a child. He is a big boy. So why do you not hold him as responsible for his own opinions and behaviors as you seem to hold Murphy responsible for it?

B.
Quote
Seriously?  With the Fomor, the White Court and Marcone all staking a claim to the city those noises could have signified battles between any two or all three of those parties.  I think a more believable reaction might have been if Murphy had mentioned the bomb, explosions and gunfire and said that she "hoped that only Harry Dresden could be at the heart of such chaos." 
The Fomor, White Court and Marcone have something in common -- they're relatively subtle. The Fomor make under-the-table deals with crooked cops. They grab people in such a way that nobody notices until so-and-so doesn't show up at the end of a bus ride. They're not bombing places, because that's counterproductive -- their ideal victim is someone who feels safe. The White Court are all about subtlety. Marcone is invested in keeping the peace, for the most part, because explosions are bad for business.

Plus, Murphy is working with the White Court and Marcone against the Fomor -- if it was fighting between them, chances are she'd already know about it, either because she'd helped plan it, or she was being called in as backup. Or she'd heard it on the scanner and checked in with everyone else to see if it was them.

The Supernatural "war" going on is going on in such a way that the normies don't seem to notice. I imagine there is very little out-and-out fighting, mostly back-alley skirmishes and the odd assassination.

And then suddenly there's like four explosions in a day. If we take it as a given that Murphy is sure it isn't the Fomor, White Court or Marcone, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to guess that Harry Blackstone That Explosion Totally Wasn't My Fault Guys Copperfield Dresden might be involved.

C. Let's say, totally hypothetically, that I went on a full on Vegas bender over the weekend with a friend. I'm talking hookers, blow, gambling, one or two quickly-annulled marriages, stealing Mike Tyson's pet tiger, etc.

One of my coworkers saw me leaving work and said have a nice weekend on Friday.

A friend of mine saw me the Tuesday after, getting lunch.

Now, what you appear to be saying, Mira, is that based on the opinion of the two people who saw me before and after the bender, I was totally OK to drive throughout the whole weekend. And that the friend who was there hauling my drunk ass to the bathroom to puke my guts out was totally wrong to take my keys away.

Does that make any sense?

So I'm going to ask again, and make it as clear as possible just what I'm asking:

What during Cold Days indicates that Harry in the state he is in during Cold Days should have the Swords during Cold Days?

D. On Murphy's custodianship of the Swords: Michael never says she was wrong to have them. Over the course of two years, she kept them safe.

During Skin Game, recall that Amoracchius is at Michael's house, which is exactly where it needed to be. Murphy decided to put it there. And putting the Sword exactly where it needs to be is exactly the sort of thing a custodian is supposed to do.

Michael said when it comes to the Swords, he doesn't believe in accidents. He did not then add, "Except for whatever Murphy does."

How can you accept that Butters getting the Sword through Harry's botched toss is Exactly According To God's Plan and say that Murphy putting Amoracchius exactly where it needed to be is a total accident?

E.
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Not the same thing, Harry did keep the facts about Mr Grey from Murphy... However I think it was also pointed out that her house was not a secured spot.. Only Demonreach or a spot with blocks put on by Mab would be safe from Adriel's eavesdropping..  The mission depended on Mr Grey's double agent status, so yeah, he had to keep that from her, he kept it from Michael... Not at all the same thing as her telling him the Swords cannot be used, Harry thinks one is needed.. Telling him she knows because she has faith implying that he didn't.  Saying she had no desire to be a Knight for the mission because she doesn't believe in redemption for Denarians...  But then she proceeds to conceal the Sword and take it with her, after her speech on the subject had to have reached Nic..  She says nothing to Harry about this, and proceeds to get it broken...
Mira: All of those reasons for secrecy also apply to Murphy.

So again: Why does Harry hiding information to have a trump card get a pass, but Murphy hiding information in the exact same way, for the exact same reasons, indicate she doesn't trust Harry?

Again, I see a double standard.

In one case, we have two characters taking the exact same kind of action for the same exact reasons, but one is vilified for it.

In another case, Butters expresses and acts on extreme distrust for Dresden, and you're holding Murphy accountable for Butters' distrust and actions, despite Murphy vocally and explicitly advising against him distrusting Harry. That simply does not make any sense.

DonBugen, I will get to your reply soon. Doin' some catch-up here.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 04:58:32 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #164 on: August 22, 2017, 04:18:23 AM »


The Supernatural "war" going on is going on in such a way that the normies don't seem to notice.

Oh, they've noticed it, they just don't understand what it is that they're seeing.  It's being chalked up to crime waves, gang violence, etc.