The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

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peregrine:
In the interest of rhetorical fairness, Harry does have the excuse of it still being illegal to kill mortals with magic, even when working for utter bastards.  An argument could have been made that his lack of immediate head exploding of Butters was because he was trying to avoid doing something that would get him executed by the Wardens.

That said, that would only be an excuse, much like his "incompetence" at catching Butters in the first place, and everyone involved (except a few people arguing here) know he was really trying to help Butters escape, Mab's orders be damned.

Mr. Death:

--- Quote from: peregrine on September 04, 2017, 11:33:16 PM ---In the interest of rhetorical fairness, Harry does have the excuse of it still being illegal to kill mortals with magic, even when working for utter bastards.  An argument could have been made that his lack of immediate head exploding of Butters was because he was trying to avoid doing something that would get him executed by the Wardens.

That said, that would only be an excuse, much like his "incompetence" at catching Butters in the first place, and everyone involved (except a few people arguing here) know he was really trying to help Butters escape, Mab's orders be damned.

--- End quote ---
Arguing such would have to ignore that Harry possesses: a large caliber handgun, so he could've just shot Butters; a six-foot length of oak, so he could've just smashed his head in; and a pair of working hands, so he could have strangled Butters.

DonBugen:
Mr. Death, you are an excellent debater.

I really don’t like admitting it, but I can’t at the moment argue against your points.  You’re making a far more logical argument than I am.  I do see your point.  The magical attack against Butters acts as proof that Harry was, in fact, impeding the chase earlier.  It demonstrates his intention and does not really leave room for ambiguity.  And the fact of the matter is, Warden Dresden would not use magic to kill Butters.

I haven’t exactly abandoned my line of thought as “obviously wrong,” but it has holes that I can’t ignore.  And until I think of something else that supports it or counters your arguments, I’m going to proceed under the assumption that Nicodemus recognized that Harry’s force blast of Butters was the piece of evidence he needed argue beyond reasonable doubt that Harry was not working in good faith.

That makes Karrin’s position here all the more difficult.  Because the truth of the matter is, if Nicodemus is right to kill Harry AND Karrin, then whatever way you slice it, Harry dies – either by Nick’s hands, or Mab’s.  This thought makes me uncomfortable, because it would mean that unless there’s some real literal deus ex machina happening right then, Karrin calling Nicodemus’ bluff could very well mean that it’s not a bluff anymore, and Harry essentially dies. 

I need to think about all this for a while.  Thanks for the awesome debate.  I’ll be back probably in 12-32 hours.

Arjan:
It means that the knights of the cross are sometimes in real danger based on the choices they and others made in the past. If Harry or Karen (or Butters) had made different choices one or more of them could have died. But Uriel trusted their free will and gave Michael the opportunity to save the day. Uriel was the deus ex machina.

It is also about Nicodemus goals changing dynamically. A few times when Nicodemus wanted to cash in a new, more tempting bait was offered.

Mira:
Words of Nic... page 245 hardback Skin Game after all was said and done.... Butters safe, Harry safe, Murphy and Sword broken on the sidewalk....


--- Quote ---
"Why, it was no more an attempt to kill you than  was your participation in the chase of the little doctor a betrayal of Mab's word that you'd aid me."
--- End quote ---

That was an admission of the truth, what went before were lies meant to get a Sword broken..  Harry quickly sees it as such, if any agreement had really been broken, Mab would have dealt with it..  She'd know instantly just as when Harry stated that she knew what she could do with their agreement back in Cold Days, his back instantly was broken again...She knew what went on was a ruse, nothing more.

--- Quote ---I haven’t exactly abandoned my line of thought as “obviously wrong,” but it has holes that I can’t ignore.  And until I think of something else that supports it or counters your arguments, I’m going to proceed under the assumption that Nicodemus recognized that Harry’s force blast of Butters was the piece of evidence he needed argue beyond reasonable doubt that Harry was not working in good faith.
--- End quote ---
He argued that, but he knew that Harry would avoid killing Butters at all costs.. He knew Harry's chase of Butters wasn't a betrayal of his agreement with Mab to aid him. No big deal, but it was a lovely excuse to put pressure on Murphy.  Harry's little blast to put Butters out of danger wasn't a betrayal of anything... Think about it, if it was, Nic would be the first to make a HUGE stink about it to Mab...He would of demand anything from Harry's immediate execution to insisting that Harry not be allowed anyone on his team on the mission, which would have been greatly to Nic's advantage..  Nic is all about gaining advantage... But he didn't.  Why?  No agreement was broken in any of it..

--- Quote ---That makes Karrin’s position here all the more difficult.  Because the truth of the matter is, if Nicodemus is right to kill Harry AND Karrin, then whatever way you slice it, Harry dies – either by Nick’s hands, or Mab’s.  This thought makes me uncomfortable, because it would mean that unless there’s some real literal deus ex machina happening right then, Karrin calling Nicodemus’ bluff could very well mean that it’s not a bluff anymore, and Harry essentially dies. 
--- End quote ---
No, he wouldn't have been, because as Nic admits later, Harry's chase and saving of Butters broke no agreement with Mab..  Also if Nic wanted Harry dead at the moment, it would have happened almost instantly at Geno's hands nothing short of a high powered pre-aimed rifle bullet to his head would have stopped it from happening.. Certainly not a run at Nic by Murphy, and once that was over, nothing to stop it from happening.. Nic would have insisted...  Yeah, he still wants Harry dead, but not until he retrieves what he wants, the Grail etc...  After he did try very hard to get him killed.. He still could have insisted after it was totally over that Mab execute her Winter Knight for the earlier events..Heck she might have done it without any prompting, she takes her bargains very seriously, but she didn't.. 
Nic wasn't right to have Harry killed, he would have been very wrong, since Harry didn't break the agreement with Mab by Nic's own admission.

If Murphy had called Nic's bluff and accepted his surrender, it is possible, Geno might have killed Harry just out of spite. 
But other than that, without his coin and noose, Nic becomes an ordinary  mortal, no power anymore to order anything. So he could scream until his is blue in the face, his orders to Geno would mean nothing..

Same thing could be argued if Murphy had killed Nic, nothing to stop Geno from killing Harry if he really wanted to do it.. 

Nic won, supposedly nothing else had changed if you go by the argument that Harry should have been killed because he broke the agreement with Mab.. He wasn't, if that was the intent it would have happened instantly as soon as the Sword broke and Murphy started to bleed on the sidewalk.  It would have happened before anyone in Michael's yard could make a move.  Didn't happen. Why? Because Nic never intended for him to die..

So no matter how you cut it, at least at that point in the story, Nic wasn't going to kill or have Harry killed, he needed him. 

Bottom line?  Nic speaks the truth on this matter, it was a ruse to take out a Holy Sword.

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