The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 30, 2017, 11:30:31 AM ---It depends on the fine print of the agreement or bargain.. Anyone knows that is Fae Bargaining 101.. The Fae cannot lie, but they know how to bargain to their advantage.. Mab told Harry to "assist" Nic, but that doesn't mean he is under Nic's command... That give Harry some wiggle room, he didn't have to kill Butters, only take him out of the action.. By bodily throwing him into Michael's yard, he was removed from the action as effectively as if he had killed him... Harry also said clearly how it could be explained, he is incompetent, or just unlucky.. And since it was all part of a ploy on Nic's part, his intent was never to kill Harry, nobody really violated anything..
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I can confidently say that this interpretation of events and this kind of understanding of the mechanics of the deal is wrong beyond doubt.
Do you know how I could be so confident?
Because Harry believe that he'll be killed by Nick. If he knew Nick can't kill him, there is no need for Harry to be so hesitant to help Butters. Obviously, Murphy see things the same way. Michael too. If Michael does not think that both Murphy and Harry are in mortal danger, if Nick truly can't kill them, he won't be sacrificing himself and offer to come out from his home.
At least 3 story characters see things differently from your interpretation. All 3 characters judge that Nick can and will kill Harry. Only Nicodemous say that he does not really mean to kill Harry, though he compare this to Harry really meaning to kill Butters. We all know the value of the word of a denarian, even if we discount Nicodemous mocking and sarcastic tone when saying it.
The understanding of 3 characters on the one hand: Murphy, Harry and Michael. Neither of them are idiots, and the word of freaking Nicodemous on the other hand. Even with half a brain, I know which one I should trust.
DonBugen:
OK, first thing – Mira, some of the things you said weren’t true. Harry is under Nick’s command as he is commanded by Mab to offer Nick what aid he requires. Second, him moving Butters into Michael’s yard is in no way similar to him killing Butters; Nicodemus states that Butters must die because he’s a threat to their operations: not only does he know too much, but he’s affiliated with Marcone, their target. Moving him to the yard does nothing to resolve this situation.
--- Quote --- Actually no. What matters is not the intent nor the act. What matters is the result.
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You say potato, I say po-tah-to. Sure, I’ll agree to that. They mean the same.
--- Quote --- I mention "Intent" because you argue that Mab could lawyer herself out of her word by using a mere excuse like "Harry forzaring Butters is an honest attempt to kill him".
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Nope. I lawyer myself with the mere excuse that “Harry Forzare-ing Butters does not in itself signify a refusal to kill him.” This puts him out of Nicodemus’ reach, but still perfectly killable by Dresden. Now, if Nick’s last command was “Stand aside so I can end him for you,” then he would be defying Nicodemus.
--- Quote --- In this context of argument, intent matters, because in order to be able to do this Mab need to misperceive Harry's intent and do it intentionally.
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Nope. She merely has to point out that he neither disobeyed a direct command nor offered him violence.
--- Quote --- By the way, GP and the unceli accords are bad examples.
--- End quote ---
The unseelie accords are excellent examples. As a guide for etiquette between powers written by Mab herself, it gives us an excellent view into her interpretation of treachery and underhandedness. Similar to her laws at Harry’s party, adhering to the letter of the law is what is important, not the spirit of the law. And it is not an insult to her character to use this; as it is her law, it is evidence.
--- Quote --- In the case of Harry's birthday party, The rule is simple: As long as there is no blood spilled on the floor, Mab is cool with it. In this case, result matters. Is there blood spilled on the floor? That is all that matters. Mab did not care about the rest. Maeve can have all the intent to kill Harry, and she can take all action to achieve her intent, but so long as no blood is actually spilled, Mab won't care.
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Yes! Absolutely. This is exactly my point. Mab didn’t swoop in and kill Harry and the Redcap before the end of the fight, just because it was probable that blood would be shed; she stepped in when the deed was done. And at this point, Harry has not yet disobeyed Nick.
--- Quote --- Again, Harry can do anything here. He can even actually help Butters to escape and he'll be find, so long as Butters is caught or killed in the end, Harry will be fulfilling the deal.
--- End quote ---
Yup! Thank you for arguing my point.
--- Quote --- The moment Butters cross over Michael's fence line, once it is determine beyond a doubt that he won't die, Harry already broken the deal. And no, you can't argue that there is no time limit to end Butters, because there is a limit, though it may not be a time limit. Remember book 10, Eldest gruf told Harry that the moment Harry leave the island and into Chicago, eldest gruf won't go after him anymore. The matter is ended there and eldest gruf would be considered failing the task. The same in Butters's case. Butters must die before a certain limit or Harry will be considered as fail. The carriage will return back into a pumpkin at midnight, for example. There is always a limit.
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Crossing Michael’s fence does not determine beyond a doubt that he won’t die. It only determines that Nicodemus won’t be holding the axe that does it. You are correct, though, that there is a time limit; I was mistaken to say that Harry could come back years later. Nick states that the reason for ending Butters is due to the danger he poses from the operation and his connection with Marcone; one would assume that as soon as Butters is away from the conflict and in a position to contact others, he would be out of play and Harry’s opportunity to follow Nicodemus’ commands would be over.
So he’s not disobeyed just yet. Until Butters gets up and runs into the house, Harry (or, I suppose, Murphy) could still shoot him. They’re both mortals and wouldn’t be affected by the angelic protection.
--- Quote --- In the birthday party case. If it is Harry who spill blood on the floor and not some sidhe, do you think Mab would just kill Harry?
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Um, yes. Absolutely. She is Mab, not some sort of mortal ruler that will be so completely disrespected by that. Her Knight disobey her law, thumb his nose at it as if he was somehow an equal to him? She would visit such horrors on him that he could not comprehend, and when he died, she would find a knight that would actually follow orders. Maybe Thomas.
I mean, come on. Mab’s already made it clear that she will not tolerate a knight in rebellion. Santa Claus warns Harry of the same exact thing – don’t disrespect her in front of others. Besides, Sarissa’s pretty clear that Harry needs to follow these laws on pain of death.
--- Quote ---“Not quite. There are two laws all must follow under pain of death.”
“Only two? Man, how do unseelie lawyers make a living?”
“First,” Sarissa said, ignoring my wiseassery, “Blood may not be spilled upon the floor of the court without the Queen’s expressed command.”
“No murder without getting a nod first, got it. Second?”
“No one may speak to the queen without her expressed command.”
I snorted. “Seriously? Because I’m not much for keeping my mouth shut. In fact, I’m pretty sure I physically can’t. Probably because I was influenced at an impressionable age. Did you ever read any Spider-Man comics when you were-“
“Harry,” Sarissa said, her voice suddenly tight. She put her hand on my arm, and her lean fingers were like heavy wires. “No one speaks to the Queen,” she whispered intently. ”No one. Not even the lady Maeve dares disobey that law.” She shuddered. “I’ve seen what happens. We all have.”
--- End quote ---
And onto the last one…
--- Quote --- Breaking the simple truce is bad enough, breaking Mab's promise is absolutely deadly for Harry, and Harry has broken both at once. A price must be paid to cover this breach. By breaking fid, Murphy with Michael's help cover this gap.
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No – the breaking of Fidelacchius is not some sort of offering in order to cover a debt that Harry incurred to Nicodemus. It doesn’t work like that. The truce between them is in effect until such time as Harry helps Nicodemus remove the contents of a vault. Once broken, it’s broken. Besides, Nick earned that breaking of the sword by his actions; he worked his butt off to get it. It was no offering given as recompense.
Mira:
--- Quote ---OK, first thing – Mira, some of the things you said weren’t true. Harry is under Nick’s command as he is commanded by Mab to offer Nick what aid he requires. Second, him moving Butters into Michael’s yard is in no way similar to him killing Butters; Nicodemus states that Butters must die because he’s a threat to their operations: not only does he know too much, but he’s affiliated with Marcone, their target. Moving him to the yard does nothing to resolve this situation.
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Sort of.... Yes, she did command him to follow Nic's instructions and aid him.. Harry says to her that she knows that Nic isn't going to honor any truce and that he'd betray Harry and try to kill him.. And Mab answered.
"Of course, she said. " I expect superior, more creative treachery on your part." "While still keeping your word and helping him?" I demanded.."Her smile sharpened. "Is it not quite the game?" she asked. "In my younger days, I would relish such a novel challenge."
So yeah, loop holes and after it was over Sword broken, Murphy shattered, Nic laughed it was all a ruse, he never really was going to kill Harry.. And Harry realized he didn't violate anything either, he could claim bad luck and incompetence.. No rules really broken, the mission was still on... Mab's real instructions were for Harry to pull off the double cross.. That is why the book was called Skin Game..
peregrine:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 30, 2017, 02:38:19 PM ---So yeah, loop holes and after it was over Sword broken, Murphy shattered, Nic laughed it was all a ruse, he never really was going to kill Harry..
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Because he was lying.
Unless, of course, Harry's overriding goal in giving pursuit of Butters was to shut him up, and not to try to help him escape. (Spoiler alert, it's the latter.)
Mira:
--- Quote from: peregrine on August 31, 2017, 12:26:28 AM ---Because he was lying.
Unless, of course, Harry's overriding goal in giving pursuit of Butters was to shut him up, and not to try to help him escape. (Spoiler alert, it's the latter.)
--- End quote ---
But Nic wasn't lying, not about setting Murphy up.. He didn't give a crap about whether or not Butters was killed. At that point Butters was of no importance to him, he knew very well that Harry wasn't going to kill Butters on his orders. Butters mistrust of Harry played into his hands and he took full advantage. It did give him an excuse to look like he was about to have Harry killed, as he pointed out Genoskwa could have done it in seconds if that was his real aim. It wasn't, it was to set off Murphy... Upon which knowing how she really felt, he could then goad her into breaking the Sword, which he did.. Harry acknowledged the facts of what he said and how it would all be seen by Mab.
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