The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 22, 2017, 01:22:24 PM ---Fair enough, but explosions would be bumped up the rank to "terrorism," which would get feds involved, and none of the parties involved want that.
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Devil's advocate on this, but while I dont doubt that Terrorism would be mentioned if explosives get used, I could see Drug Cartel's or even Local Organized Crime as getting credit, if only as possible ways it might be left in local jurisdictions.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 22, 2017, 01:51:03 PM ---Devil's advocate on this, but while I dont doubt that Terrorism would be mentioned if explosives get used, I could see Drug Cartel's or even Local Organized Crime as getting credit, if only as possible ways it might be left in local jurisdictions.
--- End quote ---
True, but it's more or less a moot point, anyway. Murphy outright states that Harry's office is the last time there's been an explosion in the city, so that is apparently a tactic that the Fomor, White Court, Marcone and the BFS are simply not using.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 17, 2017, 08:51:30 PM --- Who is "she" Murphy or Mab?
. Read pages 26 through 30 of Skin Game, Murphy gives Harry the big lecture about isolating himself from his friends... Her attitude is that Harry purposely did that, and she is worried about him.. If she knew the skinny, she wouldn't have given the lecture..
Apparently he didn't lay anything out and Murphy didn't ask, again read pages 26 -30.. A] No, it appears that Harry didn't mention Mab.. B] From the text, no, Murphy didn't ask, she assumed some psychological explanation about Harry isolating himself on the island from his friends and family on purpose.. It may not be a lack of caring, but it is idiotic amateur psychologist at work.. C] Bingo, if she truly trusted him to have his secrets... Then she'd truly trust him to have a good reason for those secrets, ergo not give him shit in the form of a guilt trip about his friends being so concerned because he purposely isolated himself on Demonreach for a year... Just a "missed you Harry what's the plan?" Would do nicely.if she truly trusted him...
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Sorry, but I don't read it that way. Can you quote me the exact text you are referring too. However, before you do so, this is what I found:
“You could live here,” she said. Then added, a beat too quickly, “In Chicago. You could, you know. Move back to town.”
I frowned, still playing with my cat. “I don’t . . . Look, when the next freak burns down my place, maybe I won’t get as lucky as I did last time.”
“Last time you wound up with a broken back and working for a monster,” Karrin said.
“Exactly,” I said. “And it was only because of literal divine intervention that none of my neighbors died.” I shook my head. “The island isn’t a kind place, but no one is going to come looking for trouble there.”
“Except you,” she said gently. “I worry about what will happen to you if you stay out there alone too long. That kind of isolation isn’t good for you, Harry.”
“It’s necessary,” I said. “It’s safer for me. It’s safer for everyone around me.”
The dialog continues and Murphy speculates why Harry is afraid to move back to Chicago, but clearly they are talking about the future and not talking about why Harry had already spent so much time on the island. More to the point if you go back to the very end of Cold Days you will find this bit of dialog in a short discussion between Thomas and Harry as Thomas and Murphy are about to depart:
"... That thing the island said was in your head?"
"Another reason to stay here," I said. "If Molly's the one who can help me, I'm on my own for now. But Demonreach seems to be able to make it leave me alone, at least while I'm here. Pretty much means I need to stay until Molly gets herself back together."
Even if you assume Murphy was on deck and didn't hear the conversation; which seems somewhat unlikely to me, you would have to assume Thomas never told Murphy about why Harry decided to stay.
I'm in agreement with you about Murphy's reaction to Harry in Cold Days. She is somewhat cold and her first words are definitely accusatory. "I hear you belong to Mab now." I just don't see that attitude carrying over to Skin Game.
Now the swords are a separate matter. I don't think Murphy was wrong to keep the swords in her possession in Cold Days, however that doesn't mean she was right to assume she would remain their custodian in the future or that she would know when the right time had come to use them.
However, even the swords are a secondary matter in the greater consideration of Karrin Murphy's personality. She was definitely damaged goods in Cold Days. Butters could see that and told Harry. Also, it seems to me that when Murphy tried to analyze Harry in Cold Days she was projecting her own situation and fears of where she was headed, into Harry's situation. (Relevant Quote below.) I think this is true even if some of her analysis was correct. I don't think she was the same judgmental person in Skin Game and despite the debacle with the sword she appeared to be getting better. Now that could all change in Peace Talks, but we will have to wait and see.
"I'm not angry at you, Harry," she said. "I don't hate you. I don't think you've gone bad. A lot of people have fallen into the trap you did. People better than either of us."
"Uh," I said. "The evil-Queen-of-Faerie trap?"
"Christ, Harry," Murphy said quietly. "No one just starts giggling and wearing black and signs up to become a villainous monster. How the hell do you think it happens?" She shook her head, her eyes pained. "It happens to people. Just people. They make questionable choices, for what might be very good reasons. They make choice after choice, and none of them is slaughtering roomfuls of saints, or murdering hundreds of baby seals, or rubber-room irrational. But it adds up. And then one day they look around and realize that they're so far over the line that they can't remember where it was."
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on August 24, 2017, 01:54:58 AM ---I'm in agreement with you about Murphy's reaction to Harry in Cold Days. She is somewhat cold and her first words are definitely accusatory. "I hear you belong to Mab now." I just don't see that attitude carrying over to Skin Game.
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Heck, I don't think it even carries over to the rest of Cold Days. It's really just that conversation where Murphy is cold to Harry -- afterward, they have a moment, and she's a lot more supportive of him.
--- Quote ---Now the swords are a separate matter. I don't think Murphy was wrong to keep the swords in her possession in Cold Days, however that doesn't mean she was right to assume she would remain their custodian in the future or that she would know when the right time had come to use them.
--- End quote ---
I don't know how far she assumed she'd keep them; when it comes to the Swords, "the foreseeable future" is murky as hell. Most likely, she was waiting for some kind of sign. In the end, though, Amoracchius was exactly where it needed to be, and Fidelacchius ended up new and improved and in the hands of a new Knight.
Seems like it worked out pretty well, as far as the Swords are concerned. Remember, no accidents.
--- Quote ---However, even the swords are a secondary matter in the greater consideration of Karrin Murphy's personality. She was definitely damaged goods in Cold Days. Butters could see that and told Harry. Also, it seems to me that when Murphy tried to analyze Harry in Cold Days she was projecting her own situation and fears of where she was headed, into Harry's situation. (Relevant Quote below.) I think this is true even if some of her analysis was correct. I don't think she was the same judgmental person in Skin Game and despite the debacle with the sword she appeared to be getting better. Now that could all change in Peace Talks, but we will have to wait and see.
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I'm basically in agreement with you here. Overall in Skin Game, she's much more together than we'd seen her in Ghost Story or Cold Days. I don't get the people who talk about her falling into despair, considering her last scene is her joking and laughing with Butters and Harry, and then making out with Harry.
DonBugen:
Mr. Death! Glad to hear back from you.
--- Quote --- You're right that Harry never seems to intend to use a Sword himself, but that's not the only way they can be in danger. He could give them to the wrong person (he blames himself for this at the end of Skin Game). Or he may hoard them and not give them out to use when they're really needed. Or he could jealously hide them, then get his ass killed for real and leave them lost.
It's not just the danger that he, himself, could use them wrong -- it's that under the mantle's influence, he's lost the perspective and mindset that made him a good choice for custodian in the first place.
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There is a difference, psychologically, between impulsive action and reasoned choice that I think you’re ignoring here. The Winter Mantle impacts a person’s baser instincts, but doesn’t change who they are (per Uriel). It causes Harry to have these moments of intense anger and aggression, which you’ve repeatedly held as examples that he isn’t in a fit mental condition to be custodian of the swords.
The problem is, Cold Days and Skin Game show nothing but Dresden having these sudden bursts of Id, then asserting his choice and free will to choose whether to follow them or indulge in them. Every time. The only time that he ever does choose to follow the mantle’s influence, it is a reasoned choice in order to fight Maeve, and Harry also chooses to stop it when he realizes how ineffective it is.
My argument to you was that the swords were only in danger if they were left suspect to these bursts of Id; the primate brain reacting before the rational brain can assert itself. I posited that the only circumstance that this would happen in is if Harry was carrying the Sword or chose to be a wielder of the Sword – two things that would only happen if Harry had already choose poorly, which was something that the Mantle wouldn’t influence him to do.
--- Quote --- Mab’s eyes snapped to Demonreach. “I have his oath, Ancient One. What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please.”
And a voice - a very calm, very gentile, very rational voice, whispered in my ear: “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”
--- End quote ---
You countered my argument by giving several examples of ways in which Harry could harm the swords which also would not happen by the Winter Mantle amping his primate brain, but only by Dresden making a conscious choice to do so. I don’t see any of your examples, including the out-of-universe example, as successfully countering my argument. Unless you can find an example or provide an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty, I see my argument as standing.
--- Quote --- I'd argue that Harry is definitely custodian on his own merits -- fighting alongside the three Knights to stop the Denarians, for instance. Being able to get a shadow of the Fallen into a Heel Face Turn. Just generally being a good man standing against the darkness.
And whether one should have possession of the Swords isn't a permanent thing, whether we're talking custodians or Knights. Murphy, for instance, was apparently the absolutely correct person to wield Fidelacchius at Chichen Itza. But in a different time and a different place, she is not.
Just because Harry is the proper custodian at points A and C does not mean he is automatically the proper custodian at point B. The Harry in Cold Days is not the Harry we've been following for the previous 13 books -- he has to get back to that point, and before he does, there are things he is temporarily disqualified from.
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First – are you conceding to my initial argument, that the swords have an intended holder and owner by TWG, per the evidence given? Your comments seem ambiguous of that.
Second – I do agree that custodianship isn’t permanent, but for different reasons. When Harry enters into custodianship of each sword, he is given the sword and tasked to give it to the next bearer. I’m not sure if TWG has temporal omniscience or not – Michael claims that he does, but that may be his Catholicism talking - but it’s clear that his servants do not; Uriel indicates that the angels operate by extremely accurate prediction of human behavior which only occasionally surprises them. At the very least, Uriel’s reaction to Dresden’s comment about predestination in The Warrior leads me to believe that the Dresdenverses’ TWG does not include predestination, and the choosing of Harry as custodian is a calculated effort which predicts a likely end and maximum amount of good.
If Harry were to ‘surprise’ Heaven by choosing something different and unexpected, assuming that such a thing is possible, I think that TWG could easily decide that he is no longer fit to hold the swords. However, if such a thing were to happen I would not expect Uriel or Gabriel or Michael (the angelic one) to suddenly show up to take the sword away; these are beings whose stated primary objective is to preserve the freedom of choice among mortals. Rather, it seems logical that they would influence other outside forces which might have the effect of bringing other mortals into the mix, who would make their own choices to take the swords from that person.
…. Which is, in effect, exactly what does happen in Cold Days. So in retrospect, I can’t really say whether it is within TWG’s will or not for the swords to remain with Harry; Murph’s presence and choice overrides that. Nor can I say that if Murph was subtly influenced to be present and in the mindset to appoint herself custodian of the swords, that it was because Harry would have put them in danger. It may have been as part of an elaborate set of circumstances in order to make sure that Butters was appointed by Harry as knight. But yes, I will concede that just because it is TWG’s will for Harry to be custodian of the swords through the books, it does not necessarily follow that TWG could not change his mind.
However, it does not follow that ‘possible’ goes straight into ‘likely’. Uriel is with Dresden through almost every step of his change into Winter Knight – from when his back’s broken, to the guidance he gives before his resurrection, to his actions in Skin Game. It’s clear from Uriel’s interactions at the end of Ghost Story that Harry acted exactly as Uriel had hoped, and Uriel’s chosen seven words of truth to offset the seven words of lies are angled specifically to give Harry hope and to encourage him to stand strong against the darkness and to not give himself up to the temptations he is about to endure. It’s no secret what the Winter Mantle does to a person; Lloyd Slate was no different from the myriad of Winter Knights who came before him. Do you think that Uriel would be surprised at Dresden’s actions in Cold Days? Does any of those violent outbursts look like an act of conscious choice to act against the probable flow of events?
Consider this: we see evidence that Harry is already influenced by the mantle, though not so strongly, in Changes. The Winter Knight chose Karrin and Susan to wield the swords in Chichen Itza, to positive result. A knight of the cross came by afterwards and appointed the Winter Knight again to be the custodian of the swords. Is it likely at all that Uriel and Sanya are somehow confused or mislead as to what the mantle does to a person? Could you see Uriel watching Harry in the fight with Andi, saying “Oh crap – I didn’t realize that was what the Mantle did. OK, better call Murphy over to babysit the swords for a while.”?
I can’t. It just doesn’t seem likely. It’s clear from Ghost Story that Harry acted just as Uriel expected him to, and the only improbable act of choice that Dresden exerts in Cold Days and beyond is the choice to fight the mantle – also something that Uriel’s banking on. I think that Murphy’s guilty of doing the same thing that Father Douglas attempted to do in The Warrior – stripped the chosen custodian of the swords because they trusted the judgment of their own eyes above the judgment of beings who can see far better and anticipate all eventualities.
--- Quote --- The fact that Sanya is a knight I'd say puts him on equal footing with Michael. Just because he doesn't literally pray doesn't mean he is somehow out of the loop.
The three Knights operate differently, yes. But I don't see that as reason to discount what any of them say about the disposition of the Swords.
Or to put it another way, if Sanya was wrong in his assessment of Dresden, then Uriel should have said so.
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They are on equal footing, and it has nothing to do with literal prayer. It has everything to do with how a person makes their choice.
Human beings are fallible beings. Michael acknowledges this and looks for guidance before making a decision if he can. Sanya follows given commands and assumes that an angel will speak up if he goes wrong. That’s dangerous when we’re talking about beings who don’t act to contradict the expressed choice of an individual. Uriel literally can’t step in when a mortal makes a choice. That’s why he had to transubstantiate himself in Skin Game; that’s why the angel of death in Ghost Story couldn’t intervene when Forthill lay dying.
Besides, let’s take this argument in a different way. You state that Sanya’s stated opinion on a person’s certainty of being able to be a custodian of the Swords should be taken as a literal truth, and if a person is certain that they should be the custodian, then they definitely should not be one. By your logic, then, Harry should not have given the swords to Karrin and Susan in Changes.
--- Quote ---“Karrin,” I said, and held out the sword. Sanya’s eyebrows climbed toward the roof.
“I’ve… been offered that sword before, Harry,” she said quietly. “Nothing’s changed since then.”
“I’m not asking you to take up the mantle of a Knight,” I said quietly. “I want to entrust it to you for this night, for this purpose. This sword was made to fight darkness, and there’s going to be plenty to go around. Take it up, just until my girl is safe.”
Murphy frowned. She looked at Sanya and said, “Can he do this?”
“Can you?” Sanya asked, looking at me.
“I was entrusted as the sword’s guardian,” I said calmly. “Exactly what am I supposed to do with it if it is not my place to choose the sword’s bearer to the best of my ability?”
Sanya considered that for a moment, then shrugged. “Seems implicit to me. They gave you the power of choice when they entrusted you with the swords. One of those things they seemed to tell you without ever saying anything that sounds remotely related.”
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Murphy and Sanya question whether Dresden can just dole out the swords to people without calling them to be knights, and Dresden is dead certain that he can. If being certain that one is right in their ability to choose means that one cannot therefore be a chooser, then that would also be stating that Dresden was wrong to choose Karrin at Chichen Itza – something which you yourself have acknowledged was not the case. It just seems very likely that Sanya’s statement of “If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad rule
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