Author Topic: Denarians and White Council  (Read 15009 times)

Offline jonas

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Denarians and White Council
« on: July 28, 2017, 04:39:54 PM »
So, I guess I never really considered this before. I usually lumped the cause of it to be similar to why the WC doesn't take offence at the Fae knights, they consider them beyond their power to police. But why is it 15 some books, various short stories, ect. I've never so much as seen a WC member acknowledge their existence? They are kept firmly in different books, without any reasoning what so ever to mention them, besides the fact they all repeatedly and gregariously violate every law they come across, 7 laws be damned. Nary a warning from EB or a question from Rashid. (despite the fact Harry was capable of slinging hellfire around the time his major ally was attacked with I). Any idea's why? two reasonings come to mind, neither of which are quiet satisfying to me.
1 From the viewers perspective, the WC are vulnerable to the depredations of the Nickelheads, so they avoid the hell out of them and vise versa to avoid giving the council a reason to go full tilt.
2 From the writers perspective, and the more likely reasoning in my mind due to the complete separation of topics. He pretty much just never crossed his story lines here. He created separate arcs with separate end points and caught up in all the little details, just missed the fact two factions largely ignore each other on and offscreen. Of course that could change at a later date, but I feel if PT is the accumulation of the WC story arc, they probably will never mix, i'm ok with that. But again, Nary a reference!?
Thoughts, idea's, opinions?
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2017, 04:59:09 PM »
Jonas,

If I'm understanding your question correctly, you are wondering why the White Council never takes umbrage with the Knights of the Blackend Denarius, since Humans are violating the laws of magic, left and right?

Well, I'm thinking a couple of things.  First is that the Denarians are/were signatories to the Unseelie Accords and as a group could not be lightly touched by the Wouncil.

From a Doyalistic perspective, it's because Harry hasn't really come across any of the Denarians with other members of the Wouncil around to find out if there is anything going on with them.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2017, 05:06:46 PM »
But they never even mention them, not once. Not even a reference. Watsonian(since you reminded me which was which lol) I think they were never gonna cross paths in the books and so He never considered how they would be reacting to their actions besides the original premise of "they are beyond our authority". It seems glaringly like how Eb never acknowledges Thomas but we're getting the idea that might be intentional on EB's part.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2017, 05:08:23 PM »
Actually, the point is kinda specifically addressed in Small Favor.   IIRC Luccio says something about starting a war with "yet another Signatory of the Accords" (even if only a minor member).

The fact that the Nickelheads are members of the Accords kinda limits the Council from taking action.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2017, 05:10:17 PM »
Actually, the point is kinda specifically addressed in Small Favor.   IIRC Luccio says something about starting a war with "yet another Signatory of the Accords" (even if only a minor member).

The fact that the Nickelheads are members of the Accords kinda limits the Council from taking action.
Ah, I see. I didn't think they ever mentioned them. Nice to know they're keeping tabs on Dresdens actions at least lol.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2017, 05:13:39 PM »
Probably self-preservation on the Denarians' part. Individually, they're scary for Harry. But I doubt if one could stand up to the coordinated efforts of more than a couple wizards at a time.

Even before the buildup, the Wardens outnumbered them almost 7-1, and the Denarians are almost never one coherent unit. If the White Council really, seriously decided the Denarians had to go, they'd probably be able to do it, and they'd have a much better chance of securing allies than the Denarians.

Mab, for instance, would probably have little hesitation in helping the White Council against the Denarians (though, admittedly, her "contribution" will probably amount to, "Harry, go put your boot in Nicodemus's ass again.")
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Offline jonas

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 05:15:50 PM »
By and large Harry's boot has proven to be Mab's most effective and efficient weapon :)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 05:19:32 PM by jonas »
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2017, 05:24:36 PM »
By and large Harry's boot has proven to be Mab's most effective and efficient weapon :)

I was going to say, "That we've seen", but I realized that isn't the truth.  I seem to recall a REALLY big weapon we saw of Mab's in Cold Days.
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Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 05:24:47 PM »
Maybe the WC has an understanding with TWG's forces that the Denarians are their problem. The KotC are way better suited to fight them than the Wardens. And technically, the Fallen inside the Coin is the problem, not the Denarian.

I'd really like to know more about the exact relationship there (today) and the history behind it. It wasn't without conflicts (inquisitions and Forthill saying that practioners were sometimes a target).

Offline jonas

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 05:36:48 PM »
I was going to say, "That we've seen", but I realized that isn't the truth.  I seem to recall a REALLY big weapon we saw of Mab's in Cold Days.
In CD? ??? ??? mmm I don't know therefor which you speak? weapon?
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I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
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...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline knnn

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2017, 05:37:43 PM »
Actually, here's a thought:

One of the exceptions to the rules is the Blackstaff.   One of the big reasons this is possible is because the Blackstaff is able to shield the user from the corruption effects that come from breaking (at least some of) the Laws.   

So what if the Coins offer a similar kind of protection?   Sure the cost is your eventual free will, but the fact that the user won't go batshit crazy from Black Magic corruption might be enough that the Council is willing overlook the legal aspects of breaking the laws under a "other Accords signatory" loophole.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 05:43:42 PM »
Actually, here's a thought:

One of the exceptions to the rules is the Blackstaff.   One of the big reasons this is possible is because the Blackstaff is able to shield the user from the corruption effects that come from breaking (at least some of) the Laws.   

So what if the Coins offer a similar kind of protection?   Sure the cost is your eventual free will, but the fact that the user won't go batshit crazy from Black Magic corruption might be enough that the Council is willing overlook the legal aspects of breaking the laws under a "other Accords signatory" loophole.
Erm, but would the council know this? Looking at it that way, I'm not so sure a black staff is any different from a dingy coin, because of how I perceive the staff to work.
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Yes, I like it though, it implies the WC are more aware of what the denarians are and why they exist than we the reader are.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 06:13:29 PM »
Actually, here's a thought:

One of the exceptions to the rules is the Blackstaff.   One of the big reasons this is possible is because the Blackstaff is able to shield the user from the corruption effects that come from breaking (at least some of) the Laws.   

So what if the Coins offer a similar kind of protection?   Sure the cost is your eventual free will, but the fact that the user won't go batshit crazy from Black Magic corruption might be enough that the Council is willing overlook the legal aspects of breaking the laws under a "other Accords signatory" loophole.
I don't see why it would. The Fallen in the coins would want their host to be more OK with breaking the laws and killing folks. Lash kept poking Harry's internal muderrage button, for instance.

And a foaming-at-the-mouth wizard is probably easier to subsume and control than one who has all his wits about him.
Compels solve everything!

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Offline Rasins

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 07:23:58 PM »
In CD? ??? ??? mmm I don't know therefor which you speak? weapon?

Big-Assed army at the outer gates.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Denarians and White Council
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2017, 07:53:50 PM »
Big-Assed army at the outer gates.
Yea, sure. If she's willing to abandon the walls. But if those troops don't count towards the balance with summer out there, I imagine completely unbalancing it by trying to use them elsewhere would be one of the triggers for Aurora to pull them both into oblivion. So it's about as much of a weapon as DR is for Harry as far as usage beyond it's designated purpose. plus apparently
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Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.