The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Wizard Academy
toodeep:
This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far. I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now? Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.
One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right? With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?
I can see why Harry might not have been in a position to be taking any new apprentices on recently :) but shouldn't we hear about an American wizard or the young wardens in America having apprentices since there should be new apprentices coming in?
Quantus:
--- Quote from: toodeep on July 26, 2017, 06:29:45 PM ---This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far. I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now? Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.
One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right? With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?
I can see why Harry might not have been in a position to be taking any new apprentices on recently :) but shouldn't we hear about an American wizard or the young wardens in America having apprentices since there should be new apprentices coming in?
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It's been about 6 books since the Paranet was founded at the end of WN, which is seven years in-world. As of Chnges, the idea was only starting to very slowly gain steam in the Council; after Changes it lost it's primary advocate on the Council. And part of the lack of support int he Council is likely due to the general Council population's distrust of Harry in particular. On the Paranet's side, it's being run by Elaine, who is not going to go too far out of her way to incorperate the Council in whatever the paranet is doing, especially after loosing Harry's support. Besides, since then the Council has been all but ignoring the US, so the Paranet has been forced to go to Marcone or the White Court for support, while teh Council was focused on the Fomor elsewhere.
--- Quote from: Changes, Ch. 8 ---“Prevention,” I said. “Find them early and they don’t go warlock.”
“Resources.” She sighed. We’d had this talk before. “If the entire Council did nothing but Warden duty, full-time, it still wouldn’t be enough.”
“Education,” I said. “Use the Paranet. Get the smaller talents to help identify the gifted.”
She smiled at me and said, “I’m still building support for it. It’s a good idea, Harry. It might even work. The problem is making some of the others in the Council understand it. They see it only as a security risk, especially after Peabody. But it’s a good idea. Its time will come—eventually.”
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jonas:
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 26, 2017, 03:15:21 PM ---Ok, retracing our steps:
The tangent started on the assertion that Mort and Harry were different because Mort /expected/ to make money from his magic and was Failing, whereas Harry was different (I wasnt every entirely clear on why you thought so).
I asserted that Harry's historic lifestyle of barely scrapping by on a PI's income and living in a constantly derided hole in the ground was in large parts a result of the Bargain he made as a child, supported by the observation it only began to turn around after that bargain was out of play (ie after SK).
We debated the likelihood of that based on the different usages of "Fortune" with me in favor of the monetary wealth definition and you preferring the "Luck" side of it.
The you said that the recent monetary windfall in SG might change my mind on the Money Vs Luck definition of Fortune, but I said that isnt a useful datapoint because it happened long after the bargain restricting his ability to amass a "Fortune" had long since been circumvented.
Does that make sense? :)
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Ok, ok I get'cha now :)
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: toodeep on July 26, 2017, 06:29:45 PM ---This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far. I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now? Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.
One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right?
--- End quote ---
Not precisely. It's not just lack of training that makes the difference between a Wizard and a lesser talent. You have to be born with the raw potential or you won't make Wizard level no matter how hard you try. Charity would never have made the Council, for ex, no matter how good her training was, because she lacked the raw strength necessary.
But also, though sorcerers have a bad rep in the DV, that's only partly deserved. It's partly a function of Council elite attitude, which kind of feeds the problem. There's a big difference in the DV between a sorcerer and a warlock, though too many sorcerers end up becoming warlocks, that's part of what the Paranet was supposed to help with.
The Paranet could be useful in identifying that 1 talent in a 100 (or 200 or whatever) that has Council potential, yes, esp. if the Council worked with them. Since those are also the same talents who made the most spectacularly dangerous warlocks, it serves two functions at once.
But it's just about as important to identify the minor talents and steer them away from the black magic early. The Korean kid, for ex, might have done fine in life if somehow had caught him early. A lot of innocent victims might have been saved that way, too.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 27, 2017, 03:11:21 AM ---Not precisely. It's not just lack of training that makes the difference between a Wizard and a lesser talent. You have to be born with the raw potential or you won't make Wizard level no matter how hard you try. Charity would never have made the Council, for ex, no matter how good her training was, because she lacked the raw strength necessary.
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Yes and No. Per WOJ it's like any other Skill in the real world, like music or sports or whatever. Anyone can get better with dedicated work. Some are born with natural talent, but will always suck because they never develop it, while others are born with enough disadvantage (ie akin to being tone deaf) that they'll never be able to match the greats with hard work. But that's not to say that a very dedicated person couldnt reach the Council eventually. Their magic likely wont much resemble Harry's brute force approach or even Molly's natural grace, and would likely lean more toward the study and slow ritual approach.
--- Quote from: jimbutcher on January 20, 2007, 10:41:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: NecroKeogh on January 20, 2007, 07:12:31 AM ---Most people in the Dresdenverse do not believe in magic which, of course, hinders any inclination towards investigating and practicing the craft. If, however, an uninitiate found interest and conviction in the craft, would he or she be able to delve into it? Would he or she be able to harness the very same forces that Harry seems so adept at manipulating? Is one's ability to utilize magic directly proportional to some genetic/descendant factor, or can anyone pick up the craft given the proper training and exposure to resources?
Assuming that any human being can wield magic, does one's biology have anything to do with how easily he or she can access magical energies? Storm Front spoke so frequently about how much power Harry possessed, and he clearly was more than a match for Victor Sells; but I wonder if that is a result of the amount of time Harry has been practicing and amassing power, or the amount of potential power he has above Victor's potential?
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Discussed before, I think, but I can give the summary version here: Using magick in the Dresden universe is like absolutely any other activity. Some people are born great at it. Some people are born with no skill whatsoever. Some people spend a lot of time and effort increasing their innate talent, and hard work can make up a lot of the difference in innate talent. Some people born with a fantastic talent never realize they have it, and consequently never use it, or develop it. Talents left undeveloped tend to wither away, and even the talented, if they don't work and practice, can't ever be really first rate.
So, a wizard like Harry is someone born with a tremendous talent for accessing magic, and then they spend a lot of time working and developing that talent. Someone like Victor had some kind of innate talent, made a deal to get themselves a bunch of extra power, but while they might have the same kind of "musclepower" Harry has (or at least been in his weight class), someone like that doesn't have Harry's experience or skill.
Put it in brawling terms. Victor was a big, mean, strong guy made dangerous by LSD and too much booze. Dresden, by comparison, is a professional heavyweight martial artist/bouncer/bodyguard well versed in real combat. Now, that big mean drunk might, if the professional is stupid or taken off guard, smash his face into the concrete. But part of being a pro means being alert and careful in a potential confrontation. If he can face the drunk on his feet and alert, he'll beat the drunk most of the time. Probably.
(Real fighting, alas, is extremely chaotic and unpredictable and even being the best is no protection against bad judgment or simply bad luck.)
Anyway. Most people could probably do SOMETHING with magic, just like most people could probably learn to sing a little. Some people are just born with an incredible voice, and training only enhances them. Others can't carry a tune in a bucket, and no amount of training will ever do them much good. But there's a world of difference between an American Idol winner and, well, all the people they love to show on the first several audition episodes.
Of course, you can cheat a little more easily when it comes to magic. I suppose you can cheat when it comes to sports, via using steroids and so on, though it isn't as simple to cheat at singing. :) Cheating with magic generally involves you trading something to something bad to give you more power. It doesn't make you any more skilled at USING that power, and you generally have to be stupid or desperate to make the deal to begin with, but you CAN cheat. There are benign sources of power out there, who might be happy to help you, but the truly benevolent among such beings generally help you get stronger by, say, giving you lessons, or encouraging you to work out, rather than just dumping it onto your head. Bottom line: there ain't no free lunch.
Bad guys love the quick and easy path. Forever will it dominate your destiny.
Jim
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