Author Topic: Wizard Academy  (Read 16319 times)

Offline toodeep

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 06:29:45 PM »
This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far.  I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now?  Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.

One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right?  With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?

I can see why Harry might not have been in a position to be taking any new apprentices on recently :) but shouldn't we hear about an American wizard or the young wardens in America having apprentices since there should be new apprentices coming in?

Offline Quantus

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 06:49:32 PM »
This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far.  I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now?  Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.

One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right?  With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?

I can see why Harry might not have been in a position to be taking any new apprentices on recently :) but shouldn't we hear about an American wizard or the young wardens in America having apprentices since there should be new apprentices coming in?
It's been about 6 books since the Paranet was founded at the end of WN, which is seven years in-world.  As of Chnges, the idea was only starting to very slowly gain steam in the Council; after Changes it lost it's primary advocate on the Council.  And part of the lack of support int he Council  is likely due to the general Council population's distrust of Harry in particular.  On the Paranet's side, it's being run by Elaine, who is not going to go too far out of her way to incorperate the Council in whatever the paranet is doing, especially after loosing Harry's support. Besides, since then the Council has been all but ignoring the US, so the Paranet has been forced to go to Marcone or the White Court for support, while teh Council was focused on the Fomor elsewhere. 


Quote from: Changes, Ch. 8
“Pre­ven­tion,” I said. “Find them ear­ly and they don’t go war­lock.”

“Re­sources.” She sighed. We’d had this talk be­fore. “If the en­tire Coun­cil did noth­ing but War­den du­ty, full-​time, it still wouldn’t be enough.”

“Ed­uca­tion,” I said. “Use the Paranet. Get the small­er tal­ents to help iden­ti­fy the gift­ed.”

She smiled at me and said, “I’m still build­ing sup­port for it. It’s a good idea, Har­ry. It might even work. The prob­lem is mak­ing some of the oth­ers in the Coun­cil un­der­stand it. They see it on­ly as a se­cu­ri­ty risk, es­pe­cial­ly af­ter Peabody. But it’s a good idea. Its time will come—even­tu­al­ly.”
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Offline jonas

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2017, 01:35:23 AM »
Ok, retracing our steps:
 The tangent started on the assertion that Mort and Harry were different because Mort /expected/ to make money from his magic and was Failing, whereas Harry was different (I wasnt every entirely clear on why you thought so).

I asserted that Harry's historic lifestyle of barely scrapping by on a PI's income and living in a constantly derided hole in the ground was in large parts a result of the Bargain he made as a child, supported by the observation it only began to turn around after that bargain was out of play (ie after SK). 

We debated the likelihood of that based on the different usages of "Fortune" with me in favor of the monetary wealth definition and you preferring the "Luck" side of it.   

The you said that the recent monetary windfall in SG might change my mind on the Money Vs Luck definition of Fortune, but I said that isnt a useful datapoint because it happened long after the bargain restricting his ability to amass a "Fortune" had long since been circumvented. 


Does that make sense?  :)
Ok, ok I get'cha now :)
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Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2017, 03:11:21 AM »
This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far.  I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now?  Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.

One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right?

Not precisely.  It's not just lack of training that makes the difference between a Wizard and a lesser talent.  You have to be born with the raw potential or you won't make Wizard level no matter how hard you try.  Charity would never have made the Council, for ex, no matter how good her training was, because she lacked the raw strength necessary.

But also, though sorcerers have a bad rep in the DV, that's only partly deserved.  It's partly a function of Council elite attitude, which kind of feeds the problem.  There's a big difference in the DV between a sorcerer and a warlock, though too many sorcerers end up becoming warlocks, that's part of what the Paranet was supposed to help with.

The Paranet could be useful in identifying that 1 talent in a 100 (or 200 or whatever) that has Council potential, yes, esp. if the Council worked with them.  Since those are also the same talents who made the most spectacularly dangerous warlocks, it serves two functions at once.

But it's just about as important to identify the minor talents and steer them away from the black magic early.  The Korean kid, for ex, might have done fine in life if somehow had caught him early.  A lot of innocent victims might have been saved that way, too.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2017, 12:57:43 PM »
Not precisely.  It's not just lack of training that makes the difference between a Wizard and a lesser talent.  You have to be born with the raw potential or you won't make Wizard level no matter how hard you try.  Charity would never have made the Council, for ex, no matter how good her training was, because she lacked the raw strength necessary.
Yes and No.  Per WOJ it's like any other Skill in the real world, like music or sports or whatever.  Anyone can get better with dedicated work.  Some are born with natural talent, but will always suck because they never develop it, while others are born with enough disadvantage (ie akin to being tone deaf) that they'll never be able to match the greats with hard work.  But that's not to say that a very dedicated person couldnt reach the Council eventually.  Their magic likely wont much resemble Harry's brute force approach or even Molly's natural grace, and would likely lean more toward the study and slow ritual approach.

Most people in the Dresdenverse do not believe in magic which, of course, hinders any inclination towards investigating and practicing the craft. If, however, an uninitiate found interest and conviction in the craft, would he or she be able to delve into it? Would he or she be able to harness the very same forces that Harry seems so adept at manipulating? Is one's ability to utilize magic directly proportional to some genetic/descendant factor, or can anyone pick up the craft given the proper training and exposure to resources?

Assuming that any human being can wield magic, does one's biology have anything to do with how easily he or she can access magical energies? Storm Front spoke so frequently about how much power Harry possessed, and he clearly was more than a match for Victor Sells; but I wonder if that is a result of the amount of time Harry has been practicing and amassing power, or the amount of potential power he has above Victor's potential?

Discussed before, I think, but I can give the summary version here:  Using magick in the Dresden universe is like absolutely any other activity.  Some people are born great at it.  Some people are born with no skill whatsoever.  Some people spend a lot of time and effort increasing their innate talent, and hard work can make up a lot of the difference in innate talent.  Some people born with a fantastic talent never realize they have it, and consequently never use it, or develop it.  Talents left undeveloped tend to wither away, and even the talented, if they don't work and practice, can't ever be really first rate.

So, a wizard like Harry is someone born with a tremendous talent for accessing magic, and then they spend a lot of time working and developing that talent.  Someone like Victor had some kind of innate talent, made a deal to get themselves a bunch of extra power, but while they might have the same kind of  "musclepower" Harry has (or at least been in his weight class), someone like that doesn't have Harry's experience or skill. 

Put it in brawling terms.  Victor was a big, mean, strong guy made dangerous by LSD and too much booze.  Dresden, by comparison, is a professional heavyweight martial artist/bouncer/bodyguard well versed in real combat.  Now, that big mean drunk might, if the professional is stupid or taken off guard, smash his face into the concrete.  But part of being a pro means being alert and careful in a potential confrontation.  If he can face the drunk on his feet and alert, he'll beat the drunk most of the time.  Probably.

(Real fighting, alas, is extremely chaotic and unpredictable and even being the best is no protection against bad judgment or simply bad luck.)

Anyway.  Most people could probably do SOMETHING with magic, just like most people could probably learn to sing a little.  Some people are just born with an incredible voice, and training only enhances them.  Others can't carry a tune in a bucket, and no amount of training will ever do them much good.  But there's a world of difference between an American Idol winner and, well, all the people they love to show on the first several audition episodes.

Of course, you can cheat a little more easily when it comes to magic.  I suppose you can cheat when it comes to sports, via using steroids and so on, though it isn't as simple to cheat at singing. :)  Cheating with magic generally involves you trading something to something bad to give you more power.  It doesn't make you any more skilled at USING that power, and you generally have to be stupid or desperate to make the deal to begin with, but you CAN cheat.  There are benign sources of power out there, who might be happy to help you, but the truly benevolent among such beings generally help you get stronger by, say, giving you lessons, or encouraging you to work out, rather than just dumping it onto your head.  Bottom line:  there ain't no free lunch.

Bad guys love the quick and easy path.  Forever will it dominate your destiny.

Jim
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Offline toodeep

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2017, 07:13:04 PM »
It's been about 6 books since the Paranet was founded at the end of WN, which is seven years in-world.  As of Chnges, the idea was only starting to very slowly gain steam in the Council; after Changes it lost it's primary advocate on the Council.  And part of the lack of support int he Council  is likely due to the general Council population's distrust of Harry in particular.  On the Paranet's side, it's being run by Elaine, who is not going to go too far out of her way to incorperate the Council in whatever the paranet is doing, especially after loosing Harry's support. Besides, since then the Council has been all but ignoring the US, so the Paranet has been forced to go to Marcone or the White Court for support, while teh Council was focused on the Fomor elsewhere.

Yes, the paranet is being forced to largely go elsewhere for help, and Elaine doesn't trust the council, but that doesn't stop everyone from knowing that they are the ones to go to if you have talent.  When you find someone who was born with the talent to be a member of the council (who doesn't painstakingly set it aside) there are only really two choices - get council training, or go it alone or get it somewhere else.  The second has been shown to generally produce warlocks or get humans into trouble with supernatural forces.  I think even the paranet or Elaine, if they found a council level talent, would recommend they go join the council.  Which means we should be hearing about apprentices being found through the paranet, and seeing an explosion of American (since that is the only area widely paranetted so far) apprentices relatively speaking.  But we haven't. 

It might be that council level talent is just still so low that the improved levels of council recruitment/detection means finding 2 wizards every ten years vs. 1, and thus the difference won't be noticeable, but considering that Justin was able to find both Elaine and Harry at the same age as Council level talent, seems to indicate that council level talent should be more common than that.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2017, 07:15:23 PM »
This being the case, you have to wonder how many folks go through life, ever even knowing they had a talent, yet unconsciously using it.  Had they had the opportunity to be trained, they might have made even more of themselves from a Council perspective.
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Offline dspringer1

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2017, 08:21:52 PM »
Quote
This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far.  I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now?  Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.

One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right?  With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?

Yes and No. 

Yes - Paranet was set up.   Harry has certainly provided some training that is primarily defensive in nature (how to deal with supernatural threats) and it is certain that the paranet made ie easier for minor talents to find other minor talents who can provide some training as well as some collective protection. 

No - There has been no serious attempt by white council wizards to engage in any systemic training of minor talents in the paranet.  So it has been more "almost blind paranet elders teaching/leading the blind" type training.   Probably a few people have been identified/recruited to the white council because of involvement in the paranet, but no extensive testing or training or recruitment has happened.   White Council is focused on the war and its own internal conflicts.   

Offline jonas

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2017, 10:02:44 PM »
This being the case, you have to wonder how many folks go through life, ever even knowing they had a talent, yet unconsciously using it.  Had they had the opportunity to be trained, they might have made even more of themselves from a Council perspective.
Those characters, like Tilly, I find fascinating actually.
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Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2017, 08:09:36 AM »
All the new baby Wardens had to be found somewhere. It's possible that the Paranet actually helped with that. Luccio liked the idea.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2017, 11:46:23 AM »
Yes and No. 

Yes - Paranet was set up.   Harry has certainly provided some training that is primarily defensive in nature (how to deal with supernatural threats) and it is certain that the paranet made ie easier for minor talents to find other minor talents who can provide some training as well as some collective protection. 

No - There has been no serious attempt by white council wizards to engage in any systemic training of minor talents in the paranet.  So it has been more "almost blind paranet elders teaching/leading the blind" type training.   Probably a few people have been identified/recruited to the white council because of involvement in the paranet, but no extensive testing or training or recruitment has happened.   White Council is focused on the war and its own internal conflicts.
Agreed, though they do have knowledgeable resources so the "elders" arent entirely blind.  Both Harry and Elaine we know work with them extensively.  Carlos works with both of them and is a progressive sort so I'd be surprised if he hadnt helped out with the local Paranet since he and Elaine are in the same town.  And any of the wardens directly under their command are going to have been made aware of the Paranet at least enough to respond to a distress call  After all the founding point of the Paranet was to avoid a repeat of WN. 
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2017, 03:56:20 PM »
All the new baby Wardens had to be found somewhere. It's possible that the Paranet actually helped with that. Luccio liked the idea.

I got the impression that they were all apprentices, since the Council meeting in Chicago anyway.  We know that Carlos was there in a Brown robe.
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Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2017, 03:34:22 AM »
Yes and No.  Per WOJ it's like any other Skill in the real world, like music or sports or whatever.  Anyone can get better with dedicated work.  Some are born with natural talent, but will always suck because they never develop it, while others are born with enough disadvantage (ie akin to being tone deaf) that they'll never be able to match the greats with hard work.  But that's not to say that a very dedicated person couldnt reach the Council eventually.  Their magic likely wont much resemble Harry's brute force approach or even Molly's natural grace, and would likely lean more toward the study and slow ritual approach.

To a point, yes.  But there are limits.  A person with tremendous skill and modest natural strength might make the Council after many years, if they practice and focus and work at it.  But you have to have the minimum level of strength, or it's got going to happen.

Remember, Council-level magic isn't just the best, it's the best of the best.  Playing at that level is going to require a certain minimum amount of available energy, no matter how skilled you are.  Some Council-wizards have lower native strengths than others.  Molly is jealous of Harry's raw strength, and even Anastasia admits that she can't come close to matching Harry for 'bench-pressing' magical energy.  But pretty much any Council wizard is going to have to be born with both a good dose of strength and a minimum level of natural talent, or it won't happen no matter how hard they try.

It's like a 5'0" skinny guy who practices really hard, really refines his skill, until he's an awesome basketball player...for a 5'0" skinny guy.  He still isn't likely to ever play for the Chicago Bulls no matter how hard he tries.

In this context, the Bulls are like the White Council.  Who can be 6'9" and in good shape, but you'll never play for the Bulls unless you work out and practice hard and long even so.  You can be 6'9" and work hard and get skilled, but fail to make the Bulls because you're so nearsighted.  Or you could be 6'9" and have great vision and work hard but also just naturally clumsy.  No Bulls contract.

To make the Council, you've got to have the basic strength, the skill to use it, the will to learn the skills and maintain them, the self-discipline to use the magic and not break the Laws, the will to hold your own with the other Wizards, your talents have to be general enough that you're not just a magical idiot savant, the brains to have that kind of power and not blow yourself up, etc.

Remember back in the early books when Harry compared himself to a magical thug, and he and others contrasted his clumsy magic with mages like Elaine, or other Council members?  Well, he was a magical thug back then, by Council standards.  But the fact that he was on the Council means he was more delicate, more skilled, more refined, even then, than 99% of all magic-users.

When you add all that up, what you get is that Council-potential almost has to be inborn in reality, whatever the theory is.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2017, 03:48:13 AM »
Yes, the paranet is being forced to largely go elsewhere for help, and Elaine doesn't trust the council, but that doesn't stop everyone from knowing that they are the ones to go to if you have talent

But others things might very well stop 'everyone from knowing that they are the ones to go if you have talent'.

We see the DV through Harry's eyes, and so we really don't know what the Paranet looks like to the typical minor talent or commoner.  We don't know how well-known it is, we don't know how trusted they are, and we don't know if other people are actively trying to cast doubt on it or sabotage it (in fact, I suspect that this is precisely the case).

A newly emerged talent might be directed to the Paranet by the magical community, but first that new talent has to discover that:

1.  There even is a magical community, and...
2.  How to find them, and who to trust once you're there.

Neither of those items is trivial.  A new talent who doesn't know what they're doing, or even that what they're doing is magic, is as likely to end up with a Gregor as an Elaine, or more.  If they go looking for information, they might come across the Paranet, but they're also likely to come across 38 other sources as well, of varying degrees of accuracy and wildly varying safety.

Add in the fact that some supernatural predators are going to be actively watching for and trying to snare vulnerable, desperate young talents, and things begin to look kind of dire.  It's a good bet that a good percentage of young new magical talents, when they start experimenting with what they can do, and looking for guidance or others like themselves, end up in the clutches of White Vampires, people like Victor Sells or Justin DuMorne, or worse.



Offline jonas

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Re: Wizard Academy
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2017, 04:18:58 PM »
Quote
A newly emerged talent might be directed to the Paranet by the magical community, but first that new talent has to discover that:

1.  There even is a magical community, and...
2.  How to find them, and who to trust once you're there.
Heh, heh. I wonder how the fact all the street level practitioners are now seen using advanced tech like the internet is going to effect the widespread belief practitioners effect technology, even and especially in those new recruits.
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