The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
WK Mantle or Lawbreaker taint?
Mira:
--- Quote ---She was a warlock for killing the Wardens who tried to arrest her, at least. But there seems to be variation in how high-functioning warlocks can be. The paradigm is that rationalizing that it's right to do an act of dark magic warps the caster so they're more likely to do the same thing again, right? So someone like Hannah (or Harry himself) who kills in self-defense is changed by that experience, but I think it's specific to responding to future threats with wrath, rather than a general temptation to burn everybody for shits 'n giggles. Harry even recognizes that tendency in himself - among other mentions, one of the significant realizations in Ghost Story is that he's tended to embrace anger when threatened as an alternative to fear, and he can't really do that when he's watching his friends in physical danger but can't intervene himself. He just doesn't connect those temper issues to his initial experience with killing Justin, but I think that's where they originated.
It's a qualitatively different personality change from someone who kills for personal gain, or in anger that's not connected to a direct threat to their own safety (e.g. the young Korean warlock Langtry used as an example). The option of leniency in self defense cases probably exists because there's more of a chance of rehabilitation for those who have become wrathful when genuinely threatened than there is for those who have changed to believe in using their magic to initiate aggression. I don't think it was an accident that Ebenezar kept Harry largely isolated to a safe environment on his farm (aside from the one encounter with teenage bullies in town, where Harry remembers just staring them down because he knew they weren't a real threat - in hindsight, I suspect Eb was treating that as a test).
--- End quote ---
I don't know if leniency is the right word for the Doom, true, it is a second chance, but screw up and both the apprentice and the sponsor get the chop. So just for that fact alone it rarely happens, because so few full wizards believe in the rehab of those who merely made a mistake out of ignorance towards warlockhood.. The only two examples we know of were Eb [his grandson] taking responsibility for Harry, and Harry, for Molly, daughter of his best friend. Also of note, Eb, as Blackstaff, had orders to kill Harry if he stepped out of line, so one wonders if Eb was really expected to take the chop with Harry if he went astray.
I would argue that Hannah in killing Wardens that came to arrest her, did it out of fear, and also ignorance of her right to a trial.. But then again who'd sponsor her? We also don't know how many wizards are of the zealous bent like Morgan was, who flat out didn't believe that rehab was possible. So in essence, Hannah is a very tragic case, killing at first in self defense and anger at being raped, then in fear of the Wardens and the White Council's judgement, it was a slippery slope towards full warlockhood that didn't come from her being evil.. The Korean kid may not have started out evil either, it speaks to the addictive nature of black magic. As seen with Molly, even under the Doom and the consequences not just to her but to Harry as well, she broke the laws because she thought she knew better than the laws.. Or maybe she never fully understood or agreed why the laws were put in place to begin with..
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Rasins on July 05, 2017, 05:31:22 PM ---If you violate the first law, even in self defense, you still have the taint. This is evidenced by the kid in SF who could see the taint of HWWB on Harry.
Just because the Council recognizes mitigating circumstances, does not mean that the universe will give you a pass.
--- End quote ---
But the degree varies enormously. For that matter, the universe doesn't necessarily give you a pass for some stuff the Council doesn't forbid.
--- Quote ---
That being said, Half-Ramps are not human. The fact that Harry "Pulled the trigger" would not have shielded him from the effects had he killed humans.
--- End quote ---
We don't know that he pulled the trigger. That was a complicated mess and it's not clear who is guilty, in either the eyes of the Council or the universe.
We do know that the half-rampires are human. Humans with a parasite planted irremovably (at least by any known means) within them, but until they cross that line and the parasite displaces them, they are most certainly humans.
Rasins:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 08, 2017, 02:38:48 AM ---But the degree varies enormously. For that matter, the universe doesn't necessarily give you a pass for some stuff the Council doesn't forbid.
We don't know that he pulled the trigger. That was a complicated mess and it's not clear who is guilty, in either the eyes of the Council or the universe.
We do know that the half-rampires are human. Humans with a parasite planted irremovably (at least by any known means) within them, but until they cross that line and the parasite displaces them, they are most certainly humans.
--- End quote ---
Okay, my bad. They are still humans, but they are no longer Mortal, and thus do not fall under the preview of the Laws of Magic.
Now Harry will still have to deal with his guilt over the killing of Susan, but as far as taint is concerned, I believe he's free of it for this act.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Rasins on July 10, 2017, 04:01:07 PM ---Okay, my bad. They are still humans, but they are no longer Mortal, and thus do not fall under the preview of the Laws of Magic.
Now Harry will still have to deal with his guilt over the killing of Susan, but as far as taint is concerned, I believe he's free of it for this act.
--- End quote ---
I dont know about this, I think it's a part that merits further clarification... Bear with me here:
While the legal aspect of the Laws do not necessarily line up with the universal function of them and of the Taint, I think we can rely on them to be based on a certain amount of accumulated Truth. If the killing formerly human monsters with Magic caused the same Taint, I think it would quickly become a common ailment among the Wardens, to the point where the flaw in the Law's enforcement would eventually be corrected. So that's the best I have for in-world evidence.
As for how I personally think it works is that it's another instance of the Intentions winning out over the actual Outcome. I dont think that Morgan or Luccio or really most Wardens would be breaking the Laws to kill a White Court vampire, largely for the reason above. But I fully expect that Harry might in general, and would certainly in the case of a handful of Wampires that he now considers actual People (like Thomas or that girl from Bigfoot on campus). And along those lines I dont think McCoy would need the Blackstaff's protections to kill Thomas, but ONLY so long as he's unaware of Thomas' true lineage.
Rasins:
Q - do you think the "taint" is completely separate from the insane driving nature of the guilt of Breaking the Laws?
Meaning, if you kill someone, you should feel some guilt. As Harry has noted, it's been gnawing at him for some time. For some people this will eventually drive them to do insane things.
As opposed to, for instance, the Korean kid. It seemed like his breaking of the law against invading the mind of others drove him deeper into his self-deluded godhood, rather than the guilt of doing bad stuff.
Granted we don't know how long either take to show sings of being nutty, but it seems like the taint works more quickly than the guilt route.
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