What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[groinkick]

So...

Might we be at an impasse because one side assumes Faith is a necessity for Sainthood (and specific Faith in TWG, to be precise) while the other side is focusing on how actions speak louder than words (and than thoughts, and than Faith)?

Because that would be quite funny, if we reproduced one of the great divides of real-world Christianity.

My opinion is a Saint is directly connected to TWG.  It is probably a person that is empowered by TwG, or Angel to balance the scales.  The person in question would also probably have to Trust (real definition of faith) in the power they were granted, similar to Harry's Trust in magic.

[Griffyn612]

My opinion is a Saint is directly connected to TWG.  It is probably a person that is empowered by TwG, or Angel to balance the scales.  The person in question would also probably have to Trust (real definition of faith) in the power they were granted, similar to Harry's Trust in magic.

I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate.  Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything.  He just doesn't trust it. 

That's the big difference between him and Michael.  Both can talk about TWG and believe TWG exists, but Michael trusts TWG, and Harry doesn't.  That's what faith is all about.  Not knowing, not acknowledging, but trusting.

[groinkick]

I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate.  Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything.  He just doesn't trust it. 

That's the big difference between him and Michael.  Both can talk about TWG and believe TWG exists, but Michael trusts TWG, and Harry doesn't.  That's what faith is all about.  Not knowing, not acknowledging, but trusting.

Well said

[Mira]

I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate.  Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything.  He just doesn't trust it. 

That's the big difference between him and Michael.  Both can talk about TWG and believe TWG exists, but Michael trusts TWG, and Harry doesn't.  That's what faith is all about.  Not knowing, not acknowledging, but trusting.

I think he is getting there as far as trust goes, and thank you for coming up with what I think happened in Cold Days with Mother Winter.  Before that moment, Harry would use soulfire as needed to turbocharge spells as needed all the while fearing he'd use it up and his soul.  This lack of trust in his gift held him back, in that moment in Cold Days he began to trust, that is why it was different.. He will never be like Michael, few men or women are.

Soulfire isn't faith based magic.  It's a power source (his own soul) he was granted the ability to tap into in order to balance the scales.  No faith required.

I think that is still a gray area, no faith required perhaps to use it, but to use it well, one has to understand it, where it comes from, and a bit of faith is required there.   I think that is why Uriel never gave him a manual with the gift, those things Harry has to find out for himself.

[ClintACK]

My opinion is a Saint is directly connected to TWG.  It is probably a person that is empowered by TwG, or Angel to balance the scales.  The person in question would also probably have to Trust (real definition of faith) in the power they were granted, similar to Harry's Trust in magic.

Great way of putting it.

So... could we say that Michael was a Saint in Skin Game, while he was walking around with Uriel's Grace?

Perhaps that's what a Saint is -- the risky (requiring mutual trust) move of temporarily handing an angel's grace to a free-willed mortal.

[Mira]

Great way of putting it.

So... could we say that Michael was a Saint in Skin Game, while he was walking around with Uriel's Grace?

Perhaps that's what a Saint is -- the risky (requiring mutual trust) move of temporarily handing an angel's grace to a free-willed mortal.

 Yeah, it is more about Heaven trusting Michael than the other way around given the consequences if Michael abused what was loaned to him..  Then again, given the nature of what soulfire is, one might say that Heaven also trusts Harry, even though he and his faith are far from perfect.

[Quantus]

I think trust is a good word to summarize this debate.  Harry knows there's an entity out there that most likely created everything.  He just doesn't trust it. 

That's the big difference between him and Michael.  Both can talk about TWG and believe TWG exists, but Michael trusts TWG, and Harry doesn't.  That's what faith is all about.  Not knowing, not acknowledging, but trusting.

That's a really great way to put it.  Helps me pin down the difference between Harry and Shiro as well, for all his accidental induction into the faith, I think Shiro had come to entirely trust TWG and their cause.  Sanya's getting there Im guessing, we havent really heard from him much since he started carrying the whole weight of it.

[groinkick]

I think that is still a gray area, no faith required perhaps to use it, but to use it well, one has to understand it, where it comes from, and a bit of faith is required there.   I think that is why Uriel never gave him a manual with the gift, those things Harry has to find out for himself.

Would you say Harry was having some faith in the Fallen angels when throwing around hellfire?

[Quantus]

Would you say Harry was having some faith in the Fallen angels when throwing around hellfire?

That's a different tack entirely: The Fallen /did/ give Harry a Manual, just one with a very steep subscription cost.   

Uriel's side cares about Faith and Free Will, but the other side only cares as much as they have to, the rest is all Temptation Flavored. 

[Mira]

That's a different tack entirely: The Fallen /did/ give Harry a Manual, just one with a very steep subscription cost.   

Uriel's side cares about Faith and Free Will, but the other side only cares as much as they have to, the rest is all Temptation Flavored.

Exactly, the more Harry tossed around hellfire the better as far as the Fallen were concerned.  If I remember correctly it also had an addictive quality about it that gave Harry real anger management problems that he wasn't even aware of.  Murphy did act the friend in that case and pointed out stuff he was doing that he wasn't even aware of.

[groinkick]

That's a different tack entirely: The Fallen /did/ give Harry a Manual, just one with a very steep subscription cost.   

Uriel's side cares about Faith and Free Will, but the other side only cares as much as they have to, the rest is all Temptation Flavored.

Harry used Soulfire the first time without even meaning to.  He didn't know he even had it.  That tells me that faith isn't a requirement. The fact that he used Soulfire without even meaning to tells me that Uriel gave him some sort of manual.  He helped him use it.

[Quantus]

Harry used Soulfire the first time without even meaning to.  He didn't know he even had it.  That tells me that faith isn't a requirement. The fact that he used Soulfire without even meaning to tells me that Uriel gave him some sort of manual.  He helped him use it.

I can go with that, it certainly fits how Harry describes using Soulfire thereafter, something like a place in his mind he goes to when he needs to access it. 

[huangjimmy108]

This is what I think.

In the world of the Dresdenverse and limiting the definition to the arcane aspect only, a saint is probably someone who regularly, consciously  and directly channel the power of higher being without actually being invested with a mantle. Which is entirely different from faith magic.

Faith magic, as I understand it, is the result of humanity's willingness to have faith. It is the power that empowers thresholds and prevents ghost from crossing over the cemetary wall. It is actually just another form of magic aside from wizardry. The difference from channeling a higher power is this. People believes that being inside one's home is safe, and therefore the house has a threshold. By believing that the cemetary wall separates the living from the dead, the wall gains the power to resist ghost. There is no higher power involve. The belief of that many humans simply translate into power.

 Harry has a mantle and soulfire is invested directly into him similar to a mantle, so he is not a saint but a knight. Michael and the other KoTC channel power via an artifact, so they are not saints either. Murphy channel an angel in book 12, but it is not voluntary, so instead of a saint it is more like she is being possessed. LTW's shapeshifting probably falls into the same line as Harry's soulfire investiture, so using my definition LTW is not a saint either.

Ft. forthill though is probably the closest to a saint we see on screen. In his blessings, Ft. Forthill can invoke power. He do it regularly and conciously. Actually, in book 3, when Michael face the rampires without ammoracchius, Michael invoke the same power, but since it is a one time deal and not regular he may or may not qualify. Oh, scratch it, Michael is a saint. He invoke that power in book 3, book 10 and book 15, especially in book 15 when he chase away Tessa. 3 times is regular enough for me.

In short, saint are a human / mortal who channels the power of higher beings. They channels power, but not invested with power.

[Mira]

I can go with that, it certainly fits how Harry describes using Soulfire thereafter, something like a place in his mind he goes to when he needs to access it.

Not quite, because he is in content fear of using it up, and though yeah, it has helped him, but. because he doesn't understand it or what it truly does it isn't as effective as it might be.  That's what made what he did with Mother Winter effective, he says it himself, it isn't just about turbocharging a spell, which is what he did before.  Also if you go back and reread the bit between Harry and Uriel in Ghost Story, that is about faith as well.  Before Ghost Story, Harry had Soul Fire, but he wasn't sure he believed in people having souls.  He questioned that, and it held him back even though he used Soulfire..

From Ghost Story;page 470

"Souls" I said.  "I mean, you wonder if they are real.  Even if you believe in them, you still have to wonder: Is my existence just this body? Is there really something more?  Do I really have a soul?"

Uriel answered him...

Uriel's smile blossomed again.  "You've got it backward, Harry," he said.  "You area soul.  You havea body."

Now the critical part, Harry begins to think;

I blinked at that.  It was something to think about.

I believe he began at that point to see himself as a soul in a different light, as he said a soul is something more than what Bob described it to be, in my opinion that requires faith, because the segment of Ghost Story is also the "what comes after.." Which is based on faith as Uriel told him..

[wyltok]

So... could we say that Michael was a Saint in Skin Game, while he was walking around with Uriel's Grace?

Perhaps that's what a Saint is -- the risky (requiring mutual trust) move of temporarily handing an angel's grace to a free-willed mortal.

This is a very interesting idea! It would explain how a Saint could be credited with something as terrifying powerful as the Loup-Garou curse.