What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[wyltok]

Not sure if Shiro is a Saint, but he definitely got the "Died a Martyr" Achievement (not sure what the gamer score for that is).

Another possible way of identifying a Saint: when Father Forthill's life was at risk during Ghost Story, an angel was on stand by to protect his soul and make sure he made it to his destination. This strongly suggests he would qualify as a proper conduit for a Miracle, should the need arise.

[Quantus]

Yes, I agree that the term "saint" has to be applied with more discretion, however I disagree about what you are saying about the holy men who attain the title or state of Buddha..   

Ill bite, why?

Then just what are you saying?   With in the Dresden universe, keeping to that for a moment, we've known five Holy Sword holders, Shiro, Sanya, Murphy, Michael, and the latest, Butters,  by your definition of sainthood, of these five, who is likely to be one?  Since he is the only one of the ones we've known that has died, do you think Shiro will be declared one or is an undeclared one?

On that Im still stuck at the same place I was at the beginning, which is that we seem to have a WOJ that says a Knight of the Cross and a Saint are both separate types of living champions.  So being a Knight alone is not enough (or rather not the particular requirement), despite that seeming the most likely/obvious answer.  And the historic definition of Saint is largely out as well, as it originated with Martyrs, specifically, and had always been a Postmortem honor. 

As far as those five go, I' say that Michael is Special even among Knights (and WOJ implies that Amoracchius Wielders are a rarer breed anyway), he was able to wield two swords simultaneously, He is the only Knight that I think would qualify as a True Believer, he was Trusted with an Archangel's Grace that time.   Shiro is definitely a 'Martyr' by the normal definition, but so far Martyr doesnt have a specific DF usages or definition, so I dont know what qualitative difference it might have with Saint other than the obvious "Saints are still Alive" bit. 

[wyltok]

And Forthill? Like I said, there's an Angel ready to escort his soul (and willing to face off against Lucifer for it, if necessary), should he die, and he's served as a conduit for Divine Intervention in the past. Harry uses him as a supplier of Holy Water capable of hurting Blampires.

Do you think he could lead a mob to take out an Elder of the Black Court?

[Quantus]

And Forthill? Like I said, there's an Angel ready to escort his soul (and willing to face off against Lucifer for it, if necessary), should he die, and he's served as a conduit for Divine Intervention in the past. Harry uses him as a supplier of Holy Water capable of hurting Blampires.

Do you think he could lead a mob to take out an Elder of the Black Court?

There's an angel ready to escort his soul, sure, but we have no idea how common a thing that is (Some tropes have everyone getting such a psychopomp, does the Almighty have limited staffing?).  Meanwhile Father Forthill has not ever shown any actual supernatural Power beyond havng his car break down on him or vaguely sensing the presence of a ghost (Unless you count making Holy Water which any priest can do).  I think it's a huge leap to say he can act as a Conduit of Divine Intervention when he's never so much as made a cross glow that I recall (which btw wouldnt be enough either, to me). 

[wyltok]

There's an angel ready to escort his soul, sure, but we have no idea how common a thing that is (Some tropes have everyone getting such a psychopomp, does the Almighty have limited staffing?). 

Harry didn't get an angel. He got a detective, instead. There were other deaths in Ghost Story (and other near-death moments), and only Forthill had his own escort loafing around where Dresden could see (this is where I would expect neurovore to jump in and point out that there's no reason to assume angels have to be visible to Dresden, and that this angel was possibly only visible because Mr. Sunshine wanted that conversation to happen).

[Quantus]

Harry didn't get an angel. He got a detective, instead. There were other deaths in Ghost Story (and other near-death moments), and only Forthill had his own escort loafing around where Dresden could see (this is where I would expect neurovore to jump in and point out that there's no reason to assume angels have to be visible to Dresden, and that this angel was possibly only visible because Mr. Sunshine wanted that conversation to happen).

Why bother, when you did a great job all on your own?   That pretty much covers it.   



Personally I think Harry actually is the most likely example we've seen so far, if we are to assume that Knights are something distinct from Saints.  Think about it:  He technically redeemed a chunk/ghost of a fallen Angel.  That impressed an Archangel enough that said VP of Creation invested the Powers of Heaven in him, directly.  Following this, Harry has had severl direct Conversations with that Archangel, two of which he initiated himself. 

[Proven Personal Fortitude in the Face of Evil/Temptation] + [Granted Powers of Heaven] + [Direct intercession with Creatures of Divinity] = Saint?

[Rasins]

Why bother, when you did a great job all on your own?   That pretty much covers it.   



Personally I think Harry actually is the most likely example we've seen so far, if we are to assume that Knights are something distinct from Saints.  Think about it:  He technically redeemed a chunk/ghost of a fallen Angel.  That impressed an Archangel enough that said VP of Creation invested the Powers of Heaven in him, directly.  Following this, Harry has had severl direct Conversations with that Archangel, two of which he initiated himself. 

[Proven Personal Fortitude in the Face of Evil/Temptation] + [Granted Powers of Heaven] + [Direct intercession with Creatures of Divinity] = Saint?

I think you are missing one component of saintliness.  The belief in a power greater than yourself.  In a God, or god.  Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith.  Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith.  Much like Charity and Michael.

[Mira]

I think you are missing one component of saintliness.  The belief in a power greater than yourself.  In a God, or god.  Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith.  Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith.  Much like Charity and Michael.

To quote a line from "The Young Pope,"  paraphrasing now, "That's what saints do, they are moved by a faith that is so solid, that they believe in God, in the power of God, before they believe in the power of human begins." 

[Quantus]

I think you are missing one component of saintliness.  The belief in a power greater than yourself.  In a God, or god.  Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith.  Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith.  Much like Charity and Michael.

Not missing it actually, Im actively discounting it.  If we can have a Knight of Elvis, a Jedi Knight, and a Knight of the "...Somethings that might be benevolent?", I dont think you actually have to believe in TWG for him to Believe in you. 

[Rasins]

Not missing it actually, Im actively discounting it.  If we can have a Knight of Elvis, a Jedi Knight, and a Knight of the "...Somethings that might be benevolent?", I dont think you actually have to believe in TWG for him to Believe in you. 

And I never said any of those three were saints.

[Quantus]

And I never said any of those three were saints.

No, but my point is that so far there has been nothing to indicate that TWG needs it's agents to be the sort of active, dedicated, and/or traditional Believers the way you describe, since none of the examples we DO have of the TWG investing Power in a mortal seem to require it (either via Swords or Soulfire or elsewise).  What you are describing is a wholly new mechanic.  Which is certainly possible, but not something Im willing to accept as a given.

[Rasins]

No, but my point is that so far there has been nothing to indicate that TWG needs it's agents to be the sort of active, dedicated, and/or traditional Believers the way you describe, since none of the examples we DO have of the TWG investing Power in a mortal seem to require it (either via Swords or Soulfire or elsewise).  What you are describing is a wholly new mechanic.  Which is certainly possible, but not something Im willing to accept as a given.

Yet we are  trying to apply a label that already has a meaning to something that may or may not be the same.

[Quantus]

Yet we are  trying to apply a label that already has a meaning to something that may or may not be the same.

More that we are trying to define a label in the DV with as minimal as possible influence from otherwise unrelated sources. 

[Mira]

More that we are trying to define a label in the DV with as minimal as possible influence from otherwise unrelated sources.

Faith is a huge theme in the Dresden Series, down to the little girl in the first short story being called, "Faith."  Harry has faith in his magic.. Michael's faith in the Almighty,  one of the Holy Swords is the Latin form of faith..  Murphy since Changes tells Harry he doesn't have faith but she does..

I think you are missing one component of saintliness.  The belief in a power greater than yourself.  In a God, or god.  Yes, Harry has great faith in his magic, but he's not treating such belief as an act of faith.  Where as the man (or woman) who is leading a group of people against a black court vampire has that faith.  Much like Charity and Michael.

Agreed, this is the point, it goes along with my quote from The Young Pope as to what makes a saint..   It all comes down to faith, even in the Dresdenverse.

[Serack]

I saw this topic when checking the forums a bit ago and didn't delve into it mostly because any speculation I've got would delve into actual real world definitions of a saint which I'm not entirely comfortable with...  Also, I've had a LOT going on lately and little keyboard access (I suck at typing things up on my phone).

I'd really like to join the conversation, but want to do it justice by reading all 6 pages.

I'll say now that

• I think it was mentioned in Death Masks that among Nickodemus' achievements he had killed several "Saints" separately from the Knights he'd killed and...
• I guess in the DF, what makes a capital S saint like Jim mentioned might have helped with the eradication of the Blampire Elders is that they wield Power.  The question becomes what Power, which is something I'd want to discuss after reading everyone else's input.