What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[Mira]

I dont know, I think that just sounds too easy, too much like the Old "For a man with only a Hammer, everything is a Nail."  Harry believes in his own Magic enough to summon Faith-glow from his pentacle, but when he turns to his magic to solve a problem it's not an act of Faith, it's just a man grasping a tool for a goal. 

Harry /has/ made more prominent Acts of Faith, and Id say gotten noticed because of them, but I think they've been relatively rare.

Easy?  Yes, but faith is that simple for those who truly believe..  Oh it can be tested by a lot of things, but in the end the answer to the question is either yes, one has faith, or no, one does not, there is no in-between..

And no, when Harry turns to his magic it isn't simply a man grasping for a tool to reach a goal..  He has a set core of beliefs about his magic and about himself using it as instilled in him in the three years he lived with Eb..
again Storm Front page 276 hardback

I took a deep breath, struggling to see clear of the anger, the hate, the deep lust that burned within me for vengeance and retribution.  That wasn't what magic was for.  That wasn't what magic did.  Magic came from life itself, from the interaction of nature and the elements, from the energy of all living beings, and especially from people.  A man's magic demonstrates what sort of person he is, what is held most deeply inside of him.  There is no truer gauge of a man's character than in the way he employs his strength, his power.

It for the above reasons that Harry was so shocked in Blood Right to find out that Eb was the Council's Blackstaff.  If anything shook his faith in his magic and what magic did, this is what did it..   But only for a little while, it was this faith in his will, his magic that ultimately allowed him to transform Lasciel's shadow and reject the coin.   By extension resulted in the gift of soul fire by Uriel.. 

[Snark Knight]

Grain of salt on that one is that the context of the mention was a Demon placing blame for a centuries-old murderous Curse on said famous Saint, and several forumites over the years have expressed skepticism given the infernal source.  Hell, harry expresses skepticism for the same reason.

Yup. Chauncy even said "legend has it". Given the importance of free will, I give it pretty close to zero chance someone could remain saintly after laying a curse that compels an entire bloodline of people to turn into murderous beasts.

I've said it before, but my bet is that 'legend' was propaganda laid by the other side, probably the Denarians.

[Quantus]

Easy?  Yes, but faith is that simple for those who truly believe..  Oh it can be tested by a lot of things, but in the end the answer to the question is either yes, one has faith, or no, one does not, there is no in-between..

More along the lines of too common.  Saints appear to have significant Power in their own right, something rare enough that the church kept cumulative lists and devoted Holidays to each one.  If it were as simple as you describe then nearly every priest ever should be one, no?

[Mira]

More along the lines of too common.  Saints appear to have significant Power in their own right, something rare enough that the church kept cumulative lists and devoted Holidays to each one.  If it were as simple as you describe then nearly every priest ever should be one, no?

Not really,  many were just "holy people" who's lives had significant impact..  Look at some of the latest names on the Roll of Saints, Mother Teresa, Pope John, Pope John Paul, no supernatural power at least in their life time..  Anyone has the potential to be a saint, on paper it is easy, in practice maybe not so much..  Take St Teresa of Lisieux, she entered a monastery at age 15, she had to lobby the Pope to enter at such an early age...  So okay, pious and determined, but her short life as a nun wasn't all that remarkable, she wasn't brilliant, nor did she perform miracles.  In fact she was considered very ordinary, she is called the saint of what she called " the little way.."  For her the road to holiness consisted of small acts of love and compassion done in the spirit of cheerfulness..  So yes, it can be as simple as I describe, but do not confuse simple with easy...

[Griffyn612]

For the sake of simplification, let's say that there are saints, and there are Saints.  Little s saints can be awesome people without power.  Big S Saints have significant power, and are what we're discussing.

[Mira]

For the sake of simplification, let's say that there are saints, and there are Saints.  Little s saints can be awesome people without power.  Big S Saints have significant power, and are what we're discussing.

  But then one has to define what "significant" power means...   Do you mean they can throw their weight around supernaturally?  Lots of wizards and Fae can do that, but that doesn't make them saints...  Do you mean they have influence over a soul because of their goodness?  There are several candidates in the books, Father Forthill, Michael, Shiro, Malcolm Dresden, but they all fall under the heading of what you are calling little saints...   I would also argue that their power was and is significant..  Shiro was on stage for only a few pages of one of the earlier books, yet his influence is still felt... Except for a couple of dream/vision sequences we've never met Malcolm Dresden, yet the power of his soul managed to save a soul and still influences his son, Harry...  Michael is a Knight of the Cross, but he'd be the first to tell you he has no real power of any kind, he is just an ordinary man..  His simple ability to listen and moral compass makes Harry want to be a better man least he disappoint Michael's impression of him..  Likewise Father Forthill, simple priest, yet he'd stand up to anything to try and save some kids... 

[groinkick]

  But then one has to define what "significant" power means...   Do you mean they can throw their weight around supernaturally?  Lots of wizards and Fae can do that, but that doesn't make them saints... 

A Saint would probably be defined by what kind of weight they were throwing around.  Wizards and Warlocks are both mortal spell casters but the type of magic they use defines them.  A Saint may be like that.  Similar but different because the type of power they utilize makes them stand apart.  Chances are good it's also who they are allied to.  Wizards generally are recognized as members of the White Council, and you have the White Court, Red Court, Winter, Summer ect...  A Saint probably is allied with some sort of Holy organization.  Chances are good that they report to TWG, or an Angel, or maybe are the backup to Knight's of The Cross when things get really really bad which is why Saints are in the Dresdenverse but appear to be extremely rare.

[Quantus]

For the sake of simplification, let's say that there are saints, and there are Saints.  Little s saints can be awesome people without power.  Big S Saints have significant power, and are what we're discussing.

No. Please dear lord NO.  We are not starting another one of the little letter/Big Letter distinctions.  d/Dragons are already one of the most cumbersome topics because of that nomenclature, there's a constant need to clarify with "Little-d dragon" or "Capital D Dragon" (especially for folks like me that chronically capitalize for no damn reason, like the hands are possessed... ). 


I propose the following terms.  These are (technically) the actual steps to canonizations, so the idea was to use them as closely to their RL intents, on the basis that in the TDF the original metaphysical truth of things would have evolved into the current public form.

Venerated:  Recognized by the church as a Saint (in modern time could mean no actual power or knowledge of the supernatural).

Beatified: One that has some form of Divine/Faith Power, but is not fully a Saint. [specific distinction TBD]
Dictionary.com = 2 [Roman Catholic Church] to declare (a deceased person) to be among the blessed and thus entitled to specific religious honor.

Sainted:  TBD

[Griffyn612]

No. Please dear lord NO.  We are not starting another one of the little letter/Big Letter distinctions.  d/Dragons are already one of the most cumbersome topics because of that nomenclature, there's a constant need to clarify with "Little-d dragon" or "Capital D Dragon" (especially for folks like me that chronically capitalize for no damn reason, like the hands are possessed... ). 


I propose the following terms.  These are (technically) the actual steps to canonizations, so the idea was to use them as closely to their RL intents, on the basis that in the TDF the original metaphysical truth of things would have evolved into the current public form.

Venerated:  Recognized by the church as a Saint (in modern time could mean no actual power or knowledge of the supernatural).

Beatified: One that has some form of Divine/Faith Power, but is not fully a Saint. [specific distinction TBD]
Dictionary.com = 2 [Roman Catholic Church] to declare (a deceased person) to be among the blessed and thus entitled to specific religious honor.

Sainted:  TBD

So we'll have beautified and Beautified, venerated and Venerated, and sainted, Sainted, and Val Kilmer.


*Note that I'm not opposed to also having val kilmer for his later work.

[Quantus]

So we'll have beautified and Beautified, venerated and Venerated, and sainted, Sainted, and Val Kilmer.


*Note that I'm not opposed to also having val kilmer for his later work.

I would hate you, but for the well-place Val Kilmer reference.

[wyltok]

We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.

Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.

From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.

Thoughts?

[Snark Knight]

From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)

Also, Michael's prayers broke a mental binding from freakin' MAB in SmF. That can't have been a small thing.

[Quantus]

We may wish to use a "proof is in the pudding" mentality, and define Saints based on their ability to perform miracles. What separates Miracles from Magic? Magic appears to require some level of aptitude and investment from the one person doing the working. Miracles could potentially be defined as "magic coming from an external source". Of course, we know from magical theory that this would fall under thaumaturgy, that is, magic from a distance, instead of evocation.

Putting it together: a Saint is someone who can act as a thaumaturgic channel for a divine being who chooses to exert their power at a distance.

From that definition, some possible examples come to mind:
- Grave Peril: When Michael burned a Rampire who touched his paladin costume (note that he didn't have a Sword at the time)
- Grave Peril: When both Susan and Michael managed to ignite their crosses with holy fire to repel Mavra (something I'm not sure Susan could have usually managed).
- All sorts of neat stuff that happens to people wielding the swords. I suspect that's more the relics in question acting as thaumaturgic links, rather than the person, though.

Thoughts?

This could work, lets chase that. 

When first introduced it was mentioned that "Michael didn't come down into the lab with me because the whole concept of using magic without the Almighty behind it didn't sit well with him, regardless of what we'd been through together".  I always thought this was an indication that Michael was entirely familiar with a farm of magic that /was/ more religious (as distinct from Harry views).  Now, when Michael prays to God it's always characterized as being the very simple, humble and direct sort of Prayer, just asking for help without a lot of ostentatious trappings.  And sometimes when he prays like that spectacular things happen. But other times he shouts Latin battle-cries and such to get the effects.  I submit that when he is using Latin phrases to channel power, he is casting a spell using magic words as mental insulation as per usual; it's likely at least as unconscious a process as the Alpha's transformation has supposedly become, but I think it's still Magic (Not sure if it's Life Energy or Faith Energy, or some blending).  By contrast I propose that those times he's prayed in the more simple way in English for a result we are seeing something qualitatively different, arguably the sort of "divine intervention" miracles that Saints are supposed to be able to request from on-high.    Thoughts?

[groinkick]

See these are the things I wonder aren't asked by people meeting Jim.  So many of the questions are always the same.  A Saint was mentioned in the book as an explanation for a curse.  Jim mentioned them as taking part against the Black Court.  I want to know WHAT a Saint is in the Dresdenverse.  Are they endowed by power from TWG?  Are they wizards that specialize in faith magic?  Are they people who after dying return as some sort of angelic/mortal hybrid who can cross the boundaries Angels cannot? 

Is a Saint in the Dresdenverse a mortal who by being associated with TWC (when he was mortal) was granted power, or obtained power by association?

[Quantus]

See these are the things I wonder aren't asked by people meeting Jim.  So many of the questions are always the same.  A Saint was mentioned in the book as an explanation for a curse.  Jim mentioned them as taking part against the Black Court.  I want to know WHAT a Saint is in the Dresdenverse.  Are they endowed by power from TWG?  Are they wizards that specialize in faith magic?  Are they people who after dying return as some sort of angelic/mortal hybrid who can cross the boundaries Angels cannot?

Ya, but people REAALLLLY want to know if Justin is Dead, like Really DED-dead, you know, as it "Ded-DEAD" dead-dead.  That's important too, right?