so the laws of magic and....

[potestas]

immortal magic, non human magic or better known as sponsored magic do they apply using your sponsors power. I think not since the laws of magic govern mortal magic not mortals. I am sure its been discussed before maybe? Thoughts

[Sanctaphrax]

Yes, it's been discussed before.

3. Is Sponsored Magic Subject To The Laws?

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18296.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19301.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19574.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19561.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18574.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,16270.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30067.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35871.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36015.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,29919.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26767.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23885.0.html
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,30762.0.html
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?591109-Dresden-Files-RPG-Questions-about-Sponsored-Magic
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/15442/are-changelings-with-sponsored-magic-subject-to-the-laws-of-magic
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24028.0.html

[potestas]

sarcasm to a degree i have never experienced before 

[Quantus]

Nah, that's just quoting an excerpt from the Lawbreaker reference thread index ("Law Talk").  There's a lot of material to cover on that one, it's one of the more popular rabbit holes to chase.

[potestas]

i know i suspected it had been spoken about but man i had no idea to what degree all of was helpful and i made my choice on how to run it so well worth the read

[Sanctaphrax]

No sarcasm was intended.

[Quantus]

i know i suspected it had been spoken about but man i had no idea to what degree all of was helpful and i made my choice on how to run it so well worth the read

How'd you end up going, out of curiosity?

[potestas]

How'd you end up going, out of curiosity?

Sponsored magic isn't mortal magic the laws only apply to mortal magic.

[Quantus]

Sponsored magic isn't mortal magic the laws only apply to mortal magic.

Interesting.  So what happens in the classic Warlock example, where some low-level mortal bargains with a demon for Power?

[Nepene]

It probably depends a lot on spheres of influence.

Vampires and sidhe can do their thing because established powers back them.

Demons aren't organized because backstabbing and chaos and so no organized protection against white council law enforcement.

[Taran]

It probably depends a lot on spheres of influence.

Vampires and sidhe can do their thing because established powers back them.

Demons aren't organized because backstabbing and chaos and so no organized protection against white council law enforcement.

But the Laws are also more than just spheres of influence.  Breaking a Law has an impact on a person's soul which goes beyond whether or not the White Council hunt you.

Although, if you're making deals with demons, chances are, your soul has been twisted a bit...

[Nepene]

But the Laws are also more than just spheres of influence.  Breaking a Law has an impact on a person's soul which goes beyond whether or not the White Council hunt you.

Although, if you're making deals with demons, chances are, your soul has been twisted a bit...

That's not something that the book does by default. For Hecatean Hags say they don't get lawbreaker stunts despite being fairly free with such curses. Vampires who do odd things with magic on other don't get such stunts. There's clearly some leeway.

[Quantus]

That's not something that the book does by default. For Hecatean Hags say they don't get lawbreaker stunts despite being fairly free with such curses. Vampires who do odd things with magic on other don't get such stunts. There's clearly some leeway.

Are the hag's still Human?  I thought they were doing enough self-surgery to have left that behind, which was why they wouldnt get Lawbreaker. 

But, like Taran said, it really always comes back around to a case- by-case basis and whether you are talking about Council Justice or Universal Consequences. 

(click to show/hide)

To my mind it's always been that any Lawbreaking is just that, regardless of source unless you've got a spectacularly good reason to explain why the character doesnt consider it his own actions or magic (I could entertain the argument, for example, that a Summer knight could kill with Fire on orders and say it was on his Queen and not him.  If he did it randomly and not on the clock that would carry less weight. And it would have to be magic that was 100% not his naturally).   If the Sponsor is politically connected enough to keep you safe from Council Justice, like say Mab for her Knight, then that give the PC more freedom but not get them clear of the other consequences, both social and metaphysical.  And especially in the case of a PC that was already a caster making a bargain for more power, that would always be subject to the normal laws, because that PC has their own magic to twist rather than just a borrowed bundle of Power. 

[Mr. Death]

Interesting.  So what happens in the classic Warlock example, where some low-level mortal bargains with a demon for Power?

Just because it doesn't technically break the metaphysical law doesn't mean the Wardens aren't going to come lop your head off.

I hardly expect Luccio or Morgan or even Harry to go, "Okay, so technically it was the demon's magic he used when he murdered that guy, so I guess our hands are tied. Darn."

[Quantus]

Just because it doesn't technically break the metaphysical law doesn't mean the Wardens aren't going to come lop your head off.

I hardly expect Luccio or Morgan or even Harry to go, "Okay, so technically it was the demon's magic he used when he murdered that guy, so I guess our hands are tied. Darn."

Hey, it's not much thinner than the line protecting Binder where magic does the summoning, but the magic creatures then just kill with claws and guns.