Evocation Mental Attacks & Thaumaturgy Attack Spells

[Ulfgeir]

Wouldn't a sleep spell be resisted by Endurance?  Is the sleep spell defined as an attack that imposes sudden physical fatigue on the target, or is a mental command to "go to sleep" (in which case, it's lawbreaking)?

I used conviction OR endurance... Some people have the physical stamina to stay awake, and others have the willpower to just keep going no matter how tired they are.  Up to the GM which he wants to use. The spell I used induced sudden physical fatigue.

/Ulfgeir

[SerGalahad]

Great sleep spell! Thanks for sharing the write-up for it!

[Taran]

Athletics is the default dodge for evocation.  Thaumaturgy lets you choose which skill to defend.  If you can convince your GM to let someone dodge with Endurance, then it's fine, but you always have the option to dodge with athletics.

For sleeping, I'd allow mental maneuvers.  "go to sleep"  which gets tagged for effect - kind of having someone zone out for an exchange or something.  Basically, the equivalent of hypnosis defended with discipline.

You certainly wouldn't be able to take a person out totally that way.  But you could tag the maneuvers to do a big physical take-out to put someone to sleep.

[dragoonbuster]

Wouldn't a sleep spell be resisted by Endurance?  Is the sleep spell defined as an attack that imposes sudden physical fatigue on the target, or is a mental command to "go to sleep" (in which case, it's lawbreaking)?

Either as written, IMO.

We've seen examples of sleep spells before. The Gatekeeper has used some strange sleep/mental spells before and wasn't considered a Lawbreaking. I think sleep spells don't cause any lasting change to a person and don't actually enthrall them so they're very Grey.

[Nerhesi]

So are we back to Yes spirit evocations can cause mental-stress damage? I thought that was too broken/not Canon?

I thought that Mental attacks would only be possible via Thaumaturgy, and evocation would be limited to spirit/mental maneuvers and the like. Otherwise.. everyone with Spirit would simply attack that mental stress track.

It doesn't break any law - as you're not transforming or killing or invading thoughts. You'd just be putting them to sleep/knocking them unconcious or in some temporary coma.  Seems like a powerful, and easy way to circumvent the first three laws, while trivially defeating most opponents (less mental armour and stress).

[rientelfon]

Hey Nerhesi,

I think the example Sleep spell provided by Ulfgeir is not a Mental Attack, but rather a Physical attack that can result in a "sleep" outcome. As for attacking Mentally, I do believe that this should strictly be something involving Thaumaturgy and possibly would fall under Biomancy.

Thanks in advance.

[Nerhesi]

Oh yes - Thanks for the clarity.. I feel like I knew that, then two days passed, after which I completely "ZOMG I CAN HAZ MENT4L ATTKZ!?! IZ BROKE!!!111" - or something similar in effect and way less grating. Thanks again

[Ulfgeir]

Hey Nerhesi,

I think the example Sleep spell provided by Ulfgeir is not a Mental Attack, but rather a Physical attack that can result in a "sleep" outcome.

Correct. The spell I put forth was meant to go against the physical stress track. The part of it that some can consider "iffy" is that it was resisted by endurance or willpower instead of athletics. The thinking by that was that you don't really dodge the spell like you might do a visible fireblast, instead your body tries to shake of the effects of sudden fatigue.

The character I play she doesn't want to harm people, so her combat spells are spells that will stop people, prefereblay so she can get away or get time to do a quick veil (Molly-style). 

The other spells that character had was a windburst that would knock someone prone, a force-cage that would keep them from moving, a hyper-awareness spell that she can cast on herself to sense her surroundings better and the Quick veil. As I have said previously, she extremely foucused on divination and combatwise, well she makes Molly look like a heavy hitter.

/Ulfgeir

[g33k]

An alternative.  Comments/criticism/improvements VERY welcome!

I think, in Fate, I'd be tempted to rule that a mental-attack "Sleep Spell" just needs 2 shifts' success to work.  It works by applying the Aspect "Asleep" to the target.  Now the target is Asleep.  But they are NOT "Taken Out."  As a physical attack that fatigues the target into exhausted sleep, I can see the "Taken Out" result, but I dislike the mechanical consequences of being Taken Out this way:  I prefer "Aspect:Asleep" both mechanically and narratively.

They are Asleep.  If they were standing up, they fall down.  This certainly wakes them up!  They may have a round of confusion / disorientation... after all, they remember being upright & in the middle of a conflict!  Now they're on the ground, feeling sleepy...  WTF???  (A mundane might take this to the doctor the next day:  "Doc, I think I have narcolepsy!  I fell asleep in the middle of a firefight...")

They are Asleep.  If they were seated, or prone, they won't "automatically" wake up...  it'd take loud noises, being physically jostled, etc.  It's likely that a round of whatever Conflict is happening, would wake them... conflicts tend to be noisy, and physically rough.  Obviously, anyone can just wake them up intentionally, saying their name loudly/nearby, or nudging them awake.

They are Asleep.  If it's quiet and still, I'd rule they keep the Aspect until the Scene ends, or 2 hours, or sunrise (whichever comes first), unless they separately had some other Aspect that might incline them to longer/shorter sleep.  Yes, that result IS much like a Taken Out, and I'm OK with that.  Also, if they themselves have an aspect such as "Sleeps Like a Cat" I'd give them some extra chances to waken.

As I said up-front:  I really would like some comments/criticisms.  I know this isn't a "traditional" rendition of the spell.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think that's the best idea. A successful maneuver shouldn't be enough to defeat an opponent. Also, that plan leaves too much up to the GM's whims for my taste.

In a game where that kind of ruling was in place, I'd look to end every fight with some kind of cheap trick. And if the environment for a fight was at all interesting, the odds are good that I could think of something. Which isn't going to lead to fun or worthwhile combat scenes.

In general, I think Aspects should work by being Invoked or Compelled. What you're suggesting seems to work around that system, and I suspect its problems stem from that approach.

[g33k]

I don't think that's the best idea. A successful maneuver shouldn't be enough to defeat an opponent. Also, that plan leaves too much up to the GM's whims for my taste.

In a game where that kind of ruling was in place, I'd look to end every fight with some kind of cheap trick. And if the environment for a fight was at all interesting, the odds are good that I could think of something. Which isn't going to lead to fun or worthwhile combat scenes.

In general, I think Aspects should work by being Invoked or Compelled. What you're suggesting seems to work around that system, and I suspect its problems stem from that approach.

Hmm.  On the one hand, I can see your Invoke/Compel argument; this does seem problematic.  So I think it needs some more work.

On the other hand, an Aspect should be "Something that is True."  Asleep is Asleep.  And "fatigued into exhausted collapse & subsequent unconsciousness" really is NOT "asleep," but is something much worse.  Merely "Asleep" should NOT be filling the Stress (or any other) Track + all/most Consequences.  And the target really isn't "Taken Out" because if you do the wrong thing next, the target may wake up and then the Conflict is back on -- and the no-longer-Asleep target shouldn't have any boxes of any Track filled -- nor any Consequences -- from merely having "fallen asleep."

To quote Dresden himself -- "I cheated."  I think a "cheap trick" is OK, if it's not a single trick that's an automatic "I win" card in most/all circumstances.  The only time this actually "defeats" an opponent is if (a) the environs are calm -- no jostling/etc; (b) the environs are sufficiently quiet -- no combat, arguments, etc; (c) the target is already seated/prone.   When all 3 of them are true... then yeah, it's really close to an "I win;"  But it's not a "Taken Out" -- I mean, the scene DOES still have the Aspect "Shhh!  Sleeoing Guard!" or some such.  The target isn't unconscious, but asleep, so you can't even "bind and gag him before he regains conscousness."

Still, I admit that the advantage of "Aspect:Asleep" are pretty huge; it is uncomfortably-close to "Taken Out" in at least some circumstances.

So, how to work "Asleep" so that -- mechanically -- the target has no small-c consequences (neither Consequences nor boxes of any Track) if they are awakenend in a round or three and re-join the Conflict?

[Haru]

On the other hand, an Aspect should be "Something that is True."  Asleep is Asleep.  And "fatigued into exhausted collapse & subsequent unconsciousness" really is NOT "asleep," but is something much worse.  Merely "Asleep" should NOT be filling the Stress (or any other) Track + all/most Consequences.  And the target really isn't "Taken Out" because if you do the wrong thing next, the target may wake up and then the Conflict is back on -- and the no-longer-Asleep target shouldn't have any boxes of any Track filled -- nor any Consequences -- from merely having "fallen asleep."

To me, if a character is able to put another character to sleep in one action, that makes him so much more powerful, the scene ceases to be a conflict. Instead, you can do it as a simple roll. If the character succeeds, the guard is asleep. If the character fails, the guard is alerted and calls for backup. That's the easiest way to deal with situations like this. Once you are in a conflict, safe or die actions are no longer an option.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hmm.  On the one hand, I can see your Invoke/Compel argument; this does seem problematic.  So I think it needs some more work.

On the other hand, an Aspect should be "Something that is True."  Asleep is Asleep.

That's why you probably shouldn't be able to put ASLEEP on someone with a maneuver. It's too big a deal.

To quote Dresden himself -- "I cheated."  I think a "cheap trick" is OK, if it's not a single trick that's an automatic "I win" card in most/all circumstances.  The only time this actually "defeats" an opponent is if (a) the environs are calm -- no jostling/etc; (b) the environs are sufficiently quiet -- no combat, arguments, etc; (c) the target is already seated/prone.   When all 3 of them are true... then yeah, it's really close to an "I win;"  But it's not a "Taken Out" -- I mean, the scene DOES still have the Aspect "Shhh!  Sleeoing Guard!" or some such.  The target isn't unconscious, but asleep, so you can't even "bind and gag him before he regains conscousness."

Thing is, characters aren't limited to this one trick. They can do this trick, that trick, and the other one too; or they can just fight normally. So if you start allowing tricks like this one, any fight where any trick is applicable will end in a blink.

This sort of ruling makes characters way stronger. Moreover, it tends to favour spellcasters, because magic is open-ended and people are more likely to interpret a spell effect broadly than they are to interpret a similar mundane action broadly.

I'm not sure why you want to make this work. Letting people put their enemies to sleep so easily just seems like a bad idea.

[g33k]

Thing is, characters aren't limited to this one trick. They can do this trick, that trick, and the other one too; or they can just fight normally. So if you start allowing tricks like this one, any fight where any trick is applicable will end in a blink.

This sort of ruling makes characters way stronger. Moreover, it tends to favour spellcasters, because magic is open-ended and people are more likely to interpret a spell effect broadly than they are to interpret a similar mundane action broadly.

I'm not sure why you want to make this work. Letting people put their enemies to sleep so easily just seems like a bad idea. 

Very good points, every one of them!

It's true that a "bag of tricks" solution with a very few broadly-applicable and very-east tricks (re-running the same few "I win this one" tricks for 99% of the problems encountered) isn't the way I'd like to play an RPG, or (as GM) see my players do it; occasionally I DO expect that my players WILL come up with a "clever trick" that entirely-sidesteps what I had expected to be a combat (or other tough problem); but that shouldn't be bread-and-butter for them.  A "trick" like this, broadly-used, does give pro-active PC's more power (assuming the NPC's are more reactive, otherwise it gets a bit arms-race-y); and a "because magic" handwave is indeed used more-broadly, more often, than most mundane handwaves.

So, if "easy" sleep-spell is a bad idea (and I'm inclined to agree with you that it is) ... can you help me come up with a different solution?  "Easy" isn't actually a critical part of it (making it so easy was just a first-cut approach).

The key elements that I'd like in a "Sleep" spell are:
 * Asleep is Asleep #1 -- it's a relatively fragile state.  Anything that would waken someone who's mundanely-asleep will waken someone who's magically-Slept (including falling-down from a standing position).
 * Asleep is Asleep #2 -- It's more-or-less obvious, from the outside; the subject is obviously not conscious/aware/alert/etc.
 * Asleep is Asleep #3 -- it isn't KO'ed or mechanically "Taken Out;" there are no lingering effects; there should be no Stress-Tracks filled, no Consequences, etc -- if the "Asleep" person awakens, they are an awake person who wasn't KO'ed/etc .

All the above doesn't have to be easy-to-do.  Maybe put it firmly into "Lawbreaker" territory (forcing Sleep upon the wakeful); maybe requiring lots of Shifts of success  Maybe make a ladder:  [ Vigilant --> Alert --> Awake --> Drowsy --> Asleep --> Deep Sleep ]  and say that a spell doing more than 1 step on the ladder isn't linear but pyramid-costed or even exponential?

[Taran]

Very good points, every one of them!

It's true that a "bag of tricks" solution with a very few broadly-applicable and very-east tricks (re-running the same few "I win this one" tricks for 99% of the problems encountered) isn't the way I'd like to play an RPG, or (as GM) see my players do it; occasionally I DO expect that my players WILL come up with a "clever trick" that entirely-sidesteps what I had expected to be a combat (or other tough problem); but that shouldn't be bread-and-butter for them.  A "trick" like this, broadly-used, does give pro-active PC's more power (assuming the NPC's are more reactive, otherwise it gets a bit arms-race-y); and a "because magic" handwave is indeed used more-broadly, more often, than most mundane handwaves.

So, if "easy" sleep-spell is a bad idea (and I'm inclined to agree with you that it is) ... can you help me come up with a different solution?  "Easy" isn't actually a critical part of it (making it so easy was just a first-cut approach).

The key elements that I'd like in a "Sleep" spell are:
 * Asleep is Asleep #1 -- it's a relatively fragile state.  Anything that would waken someone who's mundanely-asleep will waken someone who's magically-Slept (including falling-down from a standing position).
 * Asleep is Asleep #2 -- It's more-or-less obvious, from the outside; the subject is obviously not conscious/aware/alert/etc.
 * Asleep is Asleep #3 -- it isn't KO'ed or mechanically "Taken Out;" there are no lingering effects; there should be no Stress-Tracks filled, no Consequences, etc -- if the "Asleep" person awakens, they are an awake person who wasn't KO'ed/etc .

All the above doesn't have to be easy-to-do.  Maybe put it firmly into "Lawbreaker" territory (forcing Sleep upon the wakeful); maybe requiring lots of Shifts of success  Maybe make a ladder:  [ Vigilant --> Alert --> Awake --> Drowsy --> Asleep --> Deep Sleep ]  and say that a spell doing more than 1 step on the ladder isn't linear but pyramid-costed or even exponential?

as I was saying before, I think mental suggestions similar to hypnotism are fair game.  This would be modeled as spirit maneuvers.

These would all be things that could temporarily throw a person off.  Making someone 'nod off' in the middle of combat (similar to what happens when you are driving for too long) would be enough to get an advantage on a person but not take them out.   Magically induced narcolepsy could have the person fall down for a round and prevent them from acting in that exchange.

I might require a wizard to have an appropriate aspect in order to let them do 'mental' spirit evocations though.  Otherwise they'd be limited to light/force spirit evocations.