Point threshold?

[Ulfgeir]

If they took Involuntary/Rare Change, sure. Simple Human Form wouldn't have such an issue.

I did say MIGTH even be nasty enough... It would depend on who had made the item, and why it was made.  *evil grin*  <insert GM discretion>
But human form isn't that supposed to be for when something NOT human uses it, and assumes a human form so they can blend in. It doesn't exactly make sense for a human to have.

/Ulfgeir

[Second Aristh]

I did say MIGTH even be nasty enough... It would depend on who had made the item, and why it was made.  *evil grin*  <insert GM discretion>
But human form isn't that supposed to be for when something NOT human uses it, and assumes a human form so they can blend in. It doesn't exactly make sense for a human to have.

/Ulfgeir

Are you thinking Human Guise?

[Taran]

Oh poop-onna-stick, that's exactly what I did.  My face turneth red...AGAIN.

Lol. Sorry to side trek this thread but this is hilarious.   I honestly thought my immediate family was the only one who used this expression. 

"Dad, whT are we having for dinner"

Sarcastic answer: "poop on a stick"

[blackstaff67]

Lol. Sorry to side trek this thread but this is hilarious.   I honestly thought my immediate family was the only one who used this expression. 

"Dad, whT are we having for dinner"

Sarcastic answer: "poop on a stick"

Stole it from the comic "Nodwick," when Yeagar suddenly confronts BBEG all by himself.  Sometimes I also use "Krutz" as well.

[g33k]

Lol. Sorry to side trek this thread but this is hilarious.   I honestly thought my immediate family was the only one who used this expression. 

"Dad, whT are we having for dinner"

Sarcastic answer: "poop on a stick"

I've been seeng that (or its evil twin, "sh*t on a stick") for... I dunno, but a LONG time.  I had presumed it came out of some (unofficial) military usage...

[Taran]

probably. My grandfather used to use the expression too.  I should google it....

Maybe it's really old and just not used much anymore. 

anyways...refresh....

Yeah, your table, your rules...   

[blackstaff67]

I think I've discovered where the breakdown occurred.  I've played Champions, I've played GURPS and even D6.  The difference between those games and FATE/DFRPG is that the former set a limit to the amount of disadvantages/Flaws you can take; the latter game does not because the rules don't provide for it.  This makes a world of difference between a PC that has only three points of restrictions/limitations and one that has eight such points.  For all intents and purposes, this makes how powerful relative PCs can be an arbitrary thing. 
I'm thinking about looking at PCs power levels before such limitations are applied and then judging how powerful PCs are at the Refresh level I set ("Eighteen points of powers before rebates...for a ten Refresh game.  In a word, no.").     

[Taran]

Unless you allow he 'limitation' power, I can't see how you'd get 8 refresh of rebates. 

Maybe with a very specific immunity power?

[blackstaff67]

Unless you allow he 'limitation' power, I can't see how you'd get 8 refresh of rebates. 

Maybe with a very specific immunity power?

Limitation on IoP and Human Guise both.  Won't do that again.

[Taran]

yeah, you can't have Human form AND limitation.  Limitation replaces human form....since human form is a limitation.  But it doesn't really matter since limitation can attack to every power.

I just don't allow that power.  It's useful for certain character types.  Like earth elementals who only have access to their power when touching the ground...but that could just as easily be done with the involuntary human form power.

[Cadd]

The thing I like with Limitation (caveat: In theory! I haven't actually used it in play.) is that it scales.

Take The Catch: For a fairy-type character, you can actually go from Inhuman Toughness to Supernatural Toughness for free by RAW. There is no incentive to not make sure you have at least -4 worth of catch-affected powers, since Cold Iron is valued at +3. At the same time - any upgrades from that point pays full price.

Or Human Form: Billy has -6 worth of powers under Human Form - Claws, Pack Instincts, Strength and Speed. If you can find a motivation to have access to any of those outside wolf form, say Pack Instincts (worked so much with the Alphas) and Strength (minor part-body shapeshifting to increase power), this wouldn't actually cost any more despite having full-time access to half of what was previously only available in wolf form!

However - I see it as an either/or. You either go scaling Limitation or the much more math-light RAW with fixed rebates. I doubt I'd allow mixing!

[dragoonbuster]

I just don't allow that power.  It's useful for certain character types.  Like earth elementals who only have access to their power when touching the ground...but that could just as easily be done with the involuntary human form power.

Same here. And compels, when Involuntary Human Form doesn't fit. Compels solve all kinds of "problems" in terms of limitations.

[Taran]

The thing I like with Limitation (caveat: In theory! I haven't actually used it in play.) is that it scales.

Take The Catch: For a fairy-type character, you can actually go from Inhuman Toughness to Supernatural Toughness for free by RAW. There is no incentive to not make sure you have at least -4 worth of catch-affected powers, since Cold Iron is valued at +3. At the same time - any upgrades from that point pays full price.

Or Human Form: Billy has -6 worth of powers under Human Form - Claws, Pack Instincts, Strength and Speed. If you can find a motivation to have access to any of those outside wolf form, say Pack Instincts (worked so much with the Alphas) and Strength (minor part-body shapeshifting to increase power), this wouldn't actually cost any more despite having full-time access to half of what was previously only available in wolf form!

However - I see it as an either/or. You either go scaling Limitation or the much more math-light RAW with fixed rebates. I doubt I'd allow mixing!

I agree that the scaling is nice.  It lets you do things like Feeding Dependency and scale it based on your powers.  Or let you do things like have powers work half as well in certain circumstance (like dropping a strength power from supernatural to inhuman).

The problem with it is it requires a very careful eye.  You can easily rack up 5-10 refresh of bonus powers and, if the drawbacks don't apply in a given situation, you now have a character with that much more refresh than everyone else. 

The guidelines are good in the power write-up but they leave a lot to player/gm judgement.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, I'm not sure I like the shape that Power has taken "in the wild". It's more of a Power-writing guideline than an actual Power, and many people use it pretty unwisely.

Still, I think it's less abusable than the canonical rebates. Like Cadd says, it scales. That alone shuts down a lot of degenerate stuff.

I just don't allow that power.  It's useful for certain character types.  Like earth elementals who only have access to their power when touching the ground...but that could just as easily be done with the involuntary human form power.

Not really. Human Form denotes a change of, well, form. Earth elementals stay the same shape when they leave the ground. And Involuntary Human Form without changing form is just Limitation with a non-scaling cost.

[Theogony_IX]

Not really. Human Form denotes a change of, well, form. Earth elementals stay the same shape when they leave the ground. And Involuntary Human Form without changing form is just Limitation with a non-scaling cost.

This isn't necessarily true.  Lycanthropes don't change physical form, but they take the Human Form (Involuntary Change) power.