Author Topic: Point threshold?  (Read 7177 times)

Offline blackstaff67

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Point threshold?
« on: July 24, 2016, 01:12:31 PM »
I've been brainstorming trying to solve a potential problem.  Assuming a normal beginning 10 Refresh 35 skill point game, how many points in refresh would you allow a player to pump into a character before you say, "Whoa, hold on there.  Now you're power-gaming." 
I just had a player bring me a character that, before Catches and rebates were applied, had fifteen (15) points of powers invested in  him (and no stunts--"it's more efficient to buy powers than stunts").  When I called him out on a few things (like linking an IoP to Shapeshifting--that is, when he shapeshifted, the IoP appeared so he could apply the Shapeshifting rebates to his IoP), he and his friends accused me of being unfair.
Just curious--what are other people's standards of power-gaming?
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Offline blackstaff67

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Power point threshold?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 01:19:54 PM »
Just had an unusual experience.  Player brought me a character with fifteen (15) points of Refresh in powers before rebates and Catches were applied...for my 10 Refresh 35 skill point game.  When I questioned the legality of the build (such as linking IoP to shapeshifting) and why he felt he needed all those powers (nothing but powers: "Powers are more efficient to buy than stunts"), I was called out as being unfair, especially when they compared the PC to wizards--despite the fact that I've slightly nerfed the wizards in my game.

Just curious--at what point would a PC send up a red flag to you?
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Offline g33k

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 03:03:01 PM »
Just had an unusual experience.  Player brought me a character with fifteen (15) points of Refresh in powers before rebates and Catches were applied...for my 10 Refresh 35 skill point game.  When I questioned the legality of the build (such as linking IoP to shapeshifting) and why he felt he needed all those powers (nothing but powers: "Powers are more efficient to buy than stunts"), I was called out as being unfair, especially when they compared the PC to wizards--despite the fact that I've slightly nerfed the wizards in my game.

Just curious--at what point would a PC send up a red flag to you?
Well, this point sends up a red flag, for sure.  Doubling down on rebates & such -- collecting BOTH IoP and Shapeshift rebates -- is pretty munchkinous, IMHO.  Personally, I'd stand firm on this issue; point to the source material:  Wizards ARE supposed to be humankind's most-dangerous variety of supernatural.

Mechanically, I'd say that if someone can't swipe the IoP while the guy ain't looking ('cos it ain't THERE while he ain't shapeshifted) then it ain't really an ITEM.  The rebate is to compensate for the cold hard fact that the powers only come when he has the item... the item that can be fumbled/dropped, mislaid, stolen, and otherwise treated like... well, any other thing. It is what it is:  an item.

Possibly he has taken inspiration from D&D5e "Warlock" class "Pact of the Blade" feature?

I'd allow the powerset to manifest via the item; if someone does some sort of "disarm" on him and the item, he can take an action to re-manifest it!  But no IoP rebate.

Offline Theogony_IX

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2016, 05:50:27 PM »
Let me see if I understand this right.  He has a shapeshifting power like Human Form that is attached to an IoP.  So he doesn't have the IoP unless he is in his beast form?  If that is the case, then it doesn't make sense, and you should absolutely call him out on it because he is circumventing the rules meant to keep IoP rebates in check.

Or does he have an IoP that offers Human Form, meaning that his character is not naturally human?  If this is the case, then there is nothing wrong with the set up.  But, if no other PC is pushed that hard, it can create more work for you as the GM as you try to balance opposition and shift spotlight.  (Which are valid reasons to require adjusting a build, by the way.)

Now, as for your philosophical point, where is the line?  I don't know that there is an objective line if all of the rules are followed.  This is a naturally arbitrary game.  The line is wherever you place it.  Each time your players roll a Declaration, you are drawing an arbitrary line of whether you will allow it, and again for how difficult it should be.  For purchasing powers, as the GM, you can take control of the game and tell your players where the line is, or you can allow them to tell you where they want the line to be.

I have a character that has 17 refresh worth of powers before The Catch and Rebates, including two 0 refresh powers.  I wanted to push the bounds with that character, and I wanted him to feel like a real power in the world, so I built in a way that it all makes justifiable sense as far as character is concerned.  On the other hand, I would not be surprised if a GM saw the build and told me that there was far too much going on.  Another GM might be happy to have the character in his or her game.  (See Jake Carrington in my sig.  I even removed one 0 refresh power in that write up, "Aura of Influence".)

tldr;  It's up to you and your players where you draw the line.  And it's up to you, as the GM, which of your own lines you enforce in your group regardless of the players' desires.

Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2016, 06:40:20 PM »
Let me see if I understand this right.  He has a shapeshifting power like Human Form that is attached to an IoP.  So he doesn't have the IoP unless he is in his beast form?  If that is the case, then it doesn't make sense, and you should absolutely call him out on it because he is circumventing the rules meant to keep IoP rebates in check.


This.  Also insisted that Might bonuses can carry over to his targeting rolls for his attacks--weapons, fists, guns.  Had to call him out on that as well.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2016, 07:31:22 PM »
This is definitely red flag territory. A character build like that can make sense, but it seems like it's been built powers first, character and story second.

In your case, I would probably go and ask the player what he wants his character to be, other than powerful. With that, we can then build the character new from scratch. It might then be less powerful, but it'll work a lot better with everything else.

I've done exactly that a while ago, where the player had created a character based on enchanted items, which was kind of broken. We redesigned the character so that it still worked as a sort of magical Iron Man, but with other powers, not enchanted items. It worked way better.

It seems like it's very similar here. What's the character concept like? Other than "shapeshifter with an IoP"? I could see shapeshifting being linked to an item (Denarians?), but there should have to be a good explanation for why it is like that, not just "I get bonus refresh for that".
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Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 09:13:16 PM »
While it seems like a red flag...

Isn't this just like the Hexenwulf pelt belts? Just for instance:

+1 IoP Rebate:
    -1 Demonic Co-Pilot
    +1 Human Form
        -2 Inhuman Speed
        -1 Claws
        -1 Echoes of the Beast

Is that really munchinizing? Ignoring for the moment DMC's lackluster performance...


However, it's the player's reaction that sends up the red flag to me. Discuss the idea, make sure the IoP can be taken while transformed, make sure the backstory makes sense and there's a good aspect tied to it, and I don't see the issue in principle.
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Offline Taran

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2016, 09:18:48 PM »
It's hard to say if it's broken.  What is the context?  The character has to 'make sense' story-wise.   Let's see the build. 

To have an item that lets you shift forms is legal.

Lets say he wants to have a collar that lets him shift into a dog. 

-4 Collar of the Hound
+1 (collar is not too obvious and is hard to remove from someone)
-1 Beast senses (scent)
+1 Human form:
     -2 Inhuman speed
     -2 Claws
     - 1 Beast form

If he wants a sword that changes him into a dog, the question is:  how will he carry the sword?  Not a very good build.  As soon as he shifts, he drops it and changes back into a human.

If the item shifts with him, then it's not an item, then I'd argue it's not an IoP.  Or, I'd make him spend 1 refresh to have the item shift when he shifts. But that effectively negates his Human Form Bonus.

This.  Also insisted that Might bonuses can carry over to his targeting rolls for his attacks--weapons, fists, guns.  Had to call him out on that as well.

This doesn't work that way.  Being strong doesn't make you accurate.  (especially guns...that's ridiculous)  it might help you throw a boulder, or lift a car, or break a door, but not help you hit something.  You already know this, though.  if you want some kind of backing from the game designer, I'm sure there's something on this forum somewhere.  But you definitely have community consensus, I think, on this one.

Offline Taran

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Re: Point threshold?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 09:28:12 PM »
Standards are all different.

Hick Jr.  allows A LOT of min/maxing in his games.  And his characters use liberal amounts of the 'limitation' power which can rack up piles of extra refresh.  Combined with 'variable abilities', you get super-powerful characters that can do anything.

But many of his characters are like that and he allows players to do the same in games he runs.  So, his NPCs are probably as likely to be as decked out.  He's willing to do that extra work as a GM, so that's his comfort level.

I'm much, much more conservative.  I'm pretty critical of many of the custom powers when I GM.  It's a comfort thing.  And I'm lazy, so I don't like min/maxing NPCs.  In fact I use the extra characters thread a lot for my GMing.  or just use 3 skills and a handful of powers from YS to flesh out the main abilities.

But when I play, I have a vision and find powers that fit that vision and will use whatever my GM lets me get away with - to an extent.  I like to think I don't min/max too much...but I probably do.

So, if you want to put a limitation on anything in your game, that's your prerogative.  you have to run it and deal with the characters.  If you can't come up with satisfying opposition for characters you feel are over-powered, then, is it going to be a fun game for your players?

Lastly:  if all your players want to do is tromp everything and they are having fun doing it, then, maybe, that kind of game is good enough.  It just might not be fun for you. And that becomes it's own problem.

Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 09:31:11 PM »
This doesn't work that way.  Being strong doesn't make you accurate.  (especially guns...that's ridiculous)  it might help you throw a boulder, or lift a car, or break a door, but not help you hit something.  You already know this, though.  if you want some kind of backing from the game designer, I'm sure there's something on this forum somewhere.  But you definitely have community consensus, I think, on this one.

Yeah...this argument is old, old old. Flat no, strength bonuses don't apply to targeting, from a reasonable narrative or mechanical viewpoint. Period. Evil Hat should spell that out in big bold letters in any reprint they may do.
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Offline Ulfgeir

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 09:46:05 PM »
This.  Also insisted that Might bonuses can carry over to his targeting rolls for his attacks--weapons, fists, guns.  Had to call him out on that as well.

Sounds like that player is used to play D&D where high Strength will make it easier to hit. In Dresden it does not help make it easier to attack. However, it does say that Might can modifiy another skill (the example given is with grappling where you would use Might instead of Fists to have a hold).

And as for the Shapeshifting IoP, I agree with Taran and the others that it seems Iffy. I do like the example Taran gave, and might even be nasty enough that such a collar lets you turn into a dog, only problem, the shapeshifitng will last as long as you wear it, and it is kind fo hard to remove it yourself while in dog-form...

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Point threshold?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2016, 09:53:04 PM »
Hick Jr. Haven't heard that name in ages. I wonder how he's doing these days?

But yeah, any level of optimization is fine if it suits the table. And no level is fine if it doesn't. If the character is too strong for you and your group - and it sounds like it is - then you should veto it. Or else strengthen the other characters.

PS: Looks like you accidentally posted two threads. Want me to merge them?

Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Point threshold?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2016, 10:03:50 PM »
Oh poop-onna-stick, that's exactly what I did.  My face turneth red...AGAIN.
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Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2016, 10:08:11 PM »
Yeah, mebbe I'll have a little heart-to-heart with him.  Really don't wanna lose him, he's got potential. 

My thanks to everyone for the input, I don't always trust my own opinions sometimes. 
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Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Power point threshold?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2016, 10:08:21 PM »
...only problem, the shapeshifitng will last as long as you wear it, and it is kind fo hard to remove it yourself while in dog-form...

If they took Involuntary/Rare Change, sure. Simple Human Form wouldn't have such an issue.
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