Unorthodox Tracking Spells

[Kennifus Prime]

Hi everyone! I had some questions regarding some unorthodox tracking spells. Currently my players are attempting to perform two rituals at two locations for tracking purposes.

Ritual #1
A pretty calm ghost that resides within one of the PC's antique shop flipped out and began manifesting and attacking players. Once his temporary insanity subsided there was a conversation and one of the Wizard's used the sight to discover that he'd been hit by some sort of dark magic. The group is currently attempting to use the ghost as a focus point and track the spell back to its creator.

Ritual #2
Part of the party was attacked by two Black Court Vampires. They killed one and captured another. They are currently attempting a ritual using the BCV as a focus to track down his maker.

First, these rituals should work fine right? I mean, Thaumaturgy is all about making the impossible possible.

Second, I want to make sure I'm doing the Complexity for these rituals correctly. Thus far I have both at:
8 Shifts to create the effect of Tracking which is based on a required +8 Survival.
8 Shifts to cover making the spell last "A Few Hours"
5 Shifts to cover the base Disciple of the Target which is +5.
21 Shifts Total

Lastly, I know for the Complexity Wizards can help each other out. So maybe one player makes a Declaration they have a grimoire to help out the caster (Lore). Or maybe they know someone who can help with some required knowledge (Contacts). But what about for the Power portion? Anyone have any experience with 2-3 Wizards working together on a single ritual. Each contributing their own power to the spell?

Note: I usually just use Cheer Saving Thaumaturgy from Paranet Papers, but these spells are kind of big deals as they lead to a pretty key NPC.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

[dragoonbuster]

An 8 Survival roll minimum? Ignoring that it should really be Investigation (not particularly important), it would take a Legendary investigator to track them down? Okay, if that makes sense to you. I would've started at maybe Superb or the thing's Stealth skill, and seen if there were aspects or maneuvers the MBCV might have made to boost that difficulty--might be well more than 8 when done. But 8 is fine if that's what you want.

The duration you're using is way off. The minimum duration for a typical tracking spell should be AT LEAST "a few minutes" if not "a few hours" by default.

There's no need to deal with Discipline here. Typically, I wouldn't allow a "counter" roll from the target NPC; there's no reason to. In the case of your Master BCV, if they use magic, the PC might need to get around Wards or something.

Not only Wizards can assist with Complexity preparation. Anyone who could aid can help make declarations. The book specifically points this out as a good way to get the non-caster PCs involved. As far as multi-wizard channeling to cast it...I wouldn't bother rolling the control rolls here at all. Unless there's a specific time constraint, say, "I have to summon XX to deal with the demon banging down my door" or something, don't bother.


If you want this to be harder, put impediments in their way during the tracking spell. Or make them hunt down another ingredient they need to do the thaumaturgy--maybe the ghost has to be anchored in this world more to use it as a link, so you've got to get your hands on depleted uranium for ghost dust, etc. Also, remember that for all the time the PCs spend on tracking these two people (maybe the same person?) down, that NPC gets to do stuff too--make more goons, prepare for an assault if he knows it's coming, shore up defenses, much with the PC's lives, etc

[Taran]

Difficulty should be based on the typical difficulty were it possible to track with mundane means. 

Since it was dark magic, maybe the difficulty should be the dark magic user's conviction.  And/or, if it's a particularly powerful spell, it should be easier to track (that would be a declaration).  If the spell caster used shifts to make the spell harder to track, those shifts should be included in he difficulty.

Regarding the vampire as link, I'd, once again, use the vampires conviction or discipline as a base since that's what they used to transform the servant. I would imagine the captured vampire would resist, so they should add 4 shifts to be certain they succeed.

Default duration is usually 1 scene (15 minutes-hour)

If the target is behind a ward at the time of casting, the power of the ward should be added to the difficulty.  (So, for the vampire, if they are worried about wards, they might be better off casting at night she. The vamp is out and about.  Of course, the vamp might be on the move and harder to pin point. )

[Haru]

Ritual #1
A pretty calm ghost that resides within one of the PC's antique shop flipped out and began manifesting and attacking players. Once his temporary insanity subsided there was a conversation and one of the Wizard's used the sight to discover that he'd been hit by some sort of dark magic. The group is currently attempting to use the ghost as a focus point and track the spell back to its creator.

Sounds good. Though it might be hard to get some substance from the spell. It might defend itself, like the one in GP, so it might not lend itself to be used as a link. I could see making it a Lore roll to get a good link out of that, but you could just as well skip that part, the idea sounds solid enough.

Ritual #2
Part of the party was attacked by two Black Court Vampires. They killed one and captured another. They are currently attempting a ritual using the BCV as a focus to track down his maker.

I think I would want a description on how the wizard is going to represent the "link to the maker" part. I could see using a BCV to find any other BCV, so finding a specific Vampire based on the template would require a bit more. Not in terms of a roll or something, just as a description.

Second, I want to make sure I'm doing the Complexity for these rituals correctly. Thus far I have both at:
8 Shifts to create the effect of Tracking which is based on a required +8 Survival.
8 Shifts to cover making the spell last "A Few Hours"
5 Shifts to cover the base Disciple of the Target which is +5.
21 Shifts Total

Wow, that sounds like a lot. The 8 shifts for the tracking itself sounds more or less ok. If the target is that well hidden, the difficulty can well be that high. But as dragoon said, starting a bit lower and adding a few aspects for a +2 for each might make more sense. For example, usually it would be a difficulty of +4 to track the wizard through his spellwork, but the ghosts essence has mixed with the spell (+2) and the spell is already dissolving (+2), so it's a total of +8 to track it. It wouldn't change much now, but it might make it easier to set up subsequent spells.

Duration. Tracking spells don't really need a duration. A tracking spell is a "simple task" spell. It answers a simple question: "does this get done?" If the answer is yes, everything is well, if the answer is no, you need to find another way. Time doesn't really play into it. In fact, a ritual like this doesn't really have to be one ritual. Remember how Harry regularly describes how he does his tracking spell a couple of times to triangle the location. In game terms, that would still be one ritual, you just describe it as doing it multiple times, because that's how your character does it at the time. You could also have it mark a map, enchant a compass, any number of things that would just show you the way. Some of them seem like they should have a duration, but if you can just describe it differently for the same result minus a duration, the spell doesn't need a duration.

Discipline doesn't make sense here whatsoever. The target's stealth could be used as a base for the tracking difficulty above, but discipline in addition to everything else doesn't make a lot of sense.

Also, remember that the spell isn't necessarily the interesting bit of the game right now. The most interesting thing, I would imagine, would be what happens when they find and confront the people they are looking for.

Lastly, I know for the Complexity Wizards can help each other out. So maybe one player makes a Declaration they have a grimoire to help out the caster (Lore). Or maybe they know someone who can help with some required knowledge (Contacts). But what about for the Power portion? Anyone have any experience with 2-3 Wizards working together on a single ritual. Each contributing their own power to the spell?

Note: I usually just use Cheer Saving Thaumaturgy from Paranet Papers, but these spells are kind of big deals as they lead to a pretty key NPC.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

If you want to keep the players from getting to the targets too easily, I think a better way to go would be to up the ante on the spell preparation, not so much the number of shifts. Let them come up with a good reason why they can use the spell tied to the ghost. Let them convince the ghost to help them. Once that's done, they earned the right to use this to get to the bad guys, and it's much more interesting than just having to go through large numbers.

[Taran]

FYI. 

Multiple Wizards:

While anyone can make declarations, multiethnic wizards can share a ritual. If I remember correctly, one person makes control rolls but, if he fails to control the spell, other participants can take the backlash for the main caster.

I don't remember if non-wizards can participate in this way. 

Also, as Haru pointed out, Stealth is an excellent skill to use as a base difficulty.

It's also important what kind of ritual they are using. They could be summoning a spirit of knowledge or another ghost to locate the BCV.  In which case, the tracking spell could be a Contacts replacement spell.   In which case, the base difficulty could be the vamps contacts, based on how well he hid himself and spread false rumours regarding his whereabouts.   

Edit.  But now that I consider the links they are using, contacts probably doesn't work.

Since they have a BCV prisoner, they could do a intimidation spell and just force to he vampire tell them the location.

[Kennifus Prime]

Thanks for all the input guys!

Sorry for all the confusion. I do usually go the route of the cheerier Thaumaturgy so my experience with it even after a ton of sessions is minimal. I'll try to cover everything brought up, if I miss something please let me know!

Ritual #1
The ghost is entirely willing to help. He's friends with one of the PC's.

Ritual #2
As of right now no super narrative description has been made for how the Wizards want to track the maker from the current BCV. I definitely agree that tracking other BCV in general would work easier than tracking the progenitor, but that's what they're pretty set on. I'll have to think of how they could spin it to be creative. Though that's sorta their job haha.

Complexity
I used Survival, because I could have sworn it was the one with Tracking listed under it. I'm not married to Survival at all. Investigation is perfectly fine by mean. The reason I chose +8 Legendary for the base is because for one ritual they're tracking the source of an intangible item (the spell) and the other they're essentially tracking a person's parent. Both of which they have zero clue about or where they are. If you gave the best gumshoe in the world someone to find with essentially no information on who they were or where to find them, and they did it, wouldn't that be a Legendary feat? But with this as well, I'm not married to the idea at all. I'm perfectly fine lowering the Complexity based on the Skill used, whether it be Survival or Investigation or whatever.

Ah, I didn't realize the spells start out at "A Few Hours". That can pretty much drop that portion of the Complexity from +8 to [close to] +0 probably.

The BCV they plan to use the Ritual has been taken out and is bound and surrounded by three PC's. He's pretty compliant under fear of death. If it matters he's also a fledgling (relatively new BCV). Torturing him for a location was already tried, he didn't know much. The NPC who made him did so outside of their lair.

Ah, I thought Discipline was used as it's the NPC "resisting" being tracked. I like using Stealth with potential tagged Aspects if hidden really well. I'll switch it to something like this.

Assisting the Caster
I definitely agree others (even non-Wizards) can help the casting Wizard with meeting the Complexity of the Ritual. What I'm more curious about is let's say your Complexity is +10. And you meet it. And you need to summon 10 shifts of power. Your Conviction is +4. Rather than doing it yourself over multiple rounds, could three Wizards (each with +4 Conviction) put power into the Ritual all together? Taran may have answered this. It sounds like they could do it, but then a single Wizard needs to roll the Control all by their self needing to meet the full +10. (Right?)

NPC Activity
Yeah, depending on how long it takes them I'll likely have the NPC(s) doing other things in the background.

Thanks so much for your comments. This Forum is an invaluable resource.

[Haru]

I still don't see why you are trying to put duration into the spell, whether it is the default duration or not. It makes sense if it's something you are creating, like a ward, but the tracking spell doesn't really work like that.

I could see putting duration in as a way to say "it would usually take you a few hours, but you can increase the complexity to decrease the time it takes".

But I can't see what the duration of the tracking spell on its own is supposed to represent. I might be missing something, if you have something in mind there, but so far, I don't see it.

[Kennifus Prime]

I really don't have any reason for the duration portion. I just thought it was a requirement. I suppose it should never really happen, but what if you made a tracking spell and it took you a week to find someone? Would the spell just keep working indefinitely? Again, that should never come up in a game, just more my curiosity than anything. I'll just remove the duration portion from the Rituals as they're tracking spells.

[dragoonbuster]

As of right now no super narrative description has been made for how the Wizards want to track the maker from the current BCV.

Seems easy to me: the Black Court are basically corpses re-animated with some kind of specific, strange, powerful necromancy. The Master vampires impart a portion of that energy into a corpse to create a new Blampire, which then grows in strength as it feeds and ages. That means there is the same kind of link between the new Blampire and its creator as there is between a mother and daughter's blood. So you create that link between the two and follow it. As far as following that link back, the first idea to pop into my head is to cut off one of the Blampire's fingers and use it as a compass-point.

Ah, I didn't realize the spells start out at "A Few Hours". That can pretty much drop that portion of the Complexity from +8 to [close to] +0 probably.

I wouldn't bother even calculating it. If they're in the same city or general geographical area, I'd just let the default duration be "the scene;" in other words, as long as it needs to for the PCs to get the their target. And if they're far away, just add some logarithmically-growing number of shifts related to the distance the Vamp is away.

Ah, I thought Discipline was used as it's the NPC "resisting" being tracked.

You can argue that if the target has the Sight, that you get a roll to sense the divination (Lore-as-Alertness via the Sight), and then if successful give the target a chance to actively resist it, say with an evocation Counterspell, such as when Cowl banishes Harry while he's Divinating in White Night. Earlier in the chapter, Harry is almost noticed by Greycloak--Greycloak failed his Lore roll.

Rather than doing it yourself over multiple rounds, could three Wizards (each with +4 Conviction) put power into the Ritual all together?

This is in the Using Help section of the Thaumaturgy chapter. If a second spellcaster is capable of casting the spell--i.e. has Thaumaturgy or an appropriately-themed Ritual spell--then they can add "controlled shifts of power"--aka, you each get to summon and control some number of shifts on your own. Harry says you can't do this with more than 13 wizards, "because it just works that way" or somesuch excuse." Anyone help absorb Backlash as stress/Consequences.

EDIT: You might also be able to just straight-up spy on the Master, using the Blampire link and some Divination or Astral Projection.

[Haru]

Well, it might take a week to set up the spell, but that's another problem. But you usually set up a tracking spell when you are ready to go. Otherwise it would kind of be like setting up your satnav and waiting for a week, until the batteries run out.

Not every spell needs a duration. In the case of a tracking spell, you are basically casting the spell until you find the target. The one roll could well encompass several dozen recastings of the ritual, like Harry does to triangulate the target.

Now if you were to make a spell that enchants a map so it always shows you where the target is, or a compass that always points in the direction of the target, I would require you to put duration into this. The spell is not only designed to find something once, but to be able to find it again and again, if need be. It shouldn't be able to do so indefinitely, so putting a duration limitation on the spell helps. If the map or compass are just trinkets to cast the spell once, it isn't necessary, and the spell would need to be cast again, if the target got away.

[Kennifus Prime]

Now if you were to make a spell that enchants a map so it always shows you where the target is, or a compass that always points in the direction of the target, I would require you to put duration into this. The spell is not only designed to find something once, but to be able to find it again and again, if need be. It shouldn't be able to do so indefinitely, so putting a duration limitation on the spell helps. If the map or compass are just trinkets to cast the spell once, it isn't necessary, and the spell would need to be cast again, if the target got away.

Oh! Maybe I wasn't explaining correctly. My apologies. One of the characters actually specifically uses a compass. They aren't doing a tracking spell that will "Reveal the target's location." They are doing one that will have an item (compass, vampire finger, crystal on a string, whatever) that will point them towards the target until such a time as the magic wears off. Either way I think I agree it's accurate to say they'd find the target before duration could come into play, so it should be skipped.

[Kennifus Prime]

Seems easy to me: the Black Court are basically corpses re-animated with some kind of specific, strange, powerful necromancy. The Master vampires impart a portion of that energy into a corpse to create a new Blampire, which then grows in strength as it feeds and ages. That means there is the same kind of link between the new Blampire and its creator as there is between a mother and daughter's blood. So you create that link between the two and follow it. As far as following that link back, the first idea to pop into my head is to cut off one of the Blampire's fingers and use it as a compass-point.

I love this description. Thanks!

This is in the Using Help section of the Thaumaturgy chapter. If a second spellcaster is capable of casting the spell--i.e. has Thaumaturgy or an appropriately-themed Ritual spell--then they can add "controlled shifts of power"--aka, you each get to summon and control some number of shifts on your own. Harry says you can't do this with more than 13 wizards, "because it just works that way" or somesuch excuse." Anyone help absorb Backlash as stress/Consequences.

Oh wow, so it does. (YS272) for future readers who want a reference.