The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The Religious Relics: What Are They?
canpinter:
--- Quote from: Lawgiver on June 29, 2015, 07:34:53 PM ---BAT
Big
APOLCALYPTIC
Trilogy
I draw attention to the second word (all caps)..
Wikipedia
All things being equal would it be that out of order for an enactment of an Apocalypse include a major religious figure/deity from the core religion of the milieu (in this case Christianity...)?
There have been many speculations that the BAT/DV story will end with a change of guard at the Outer Gates; Winter being replaced by someone else as Watchers On The Wall, so to speak. The Judeo/Christian Armageddon (or something DV-ish akin to it) might well be what it entails.
/shrug
Don't know but wouldn't be surprise by this point.
--- End quote ---
so ya.....i always thought it stood for Bad-ass trilogy
forumghost:
I thought it was the 'Bat' Trilogy, and Harry was going to spend three books stuck in Gotham City. Harry would have to struggle between his Geek Fanboyism of being in a Comic Universe, and his Geek Fanrage of knowing that it was DC and not Marvel
Ulfgeir:
--- Quote from: forumghost on July 01, 2015, 08:36:15 AM ---I thought it was the 'Bat' Trilogy, and Harry was going to spend three books stuck in Gotham City. Harry would have to struggle between his Geek Fanboyism of being in a Comic Universe, and his Geek Fanrage of knowing that it was DC and not Marvel
--- End quote ---
And he would NOT be Batman... Wonder if he would end up being one of the villains instead.
/Ulfgeir
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on June 30, 2015, 07:34:01 PM ---Essentially yes, the Nails gained prominence and meaning thanks to the event of the crucifixion. The Swords, which as we know have been reforged and taken on 'mantles' of their own thru time, could very well have been 'holy swords' in their own right. Joyuse comes to mind as a tie to Excalibur, and that Sword was wielded by none other than Charlemagne though that came after...we know of course about Kusangi predating the Death.
However, they only become 'Swords of the Cross' because of these events. And thus whatever they were before, they became something else. In a very Kringle esque manner. Or better example, the fake Shroud. It has power because ppl think its the real deal, the genuine article. But its absolutely nothing compared to the one in the Vault. So too would any other versions of the Swords prior to receiving the Nails. Certainly they keep that prominence and history, people still view those famous blades a certain way. But now they are something new altogether.
Like the item-mantles are the 'anchor' to reality that allows a blade with its own power to obtain more or adapt to the Nails when re-forged. Idk where that idea would lead but it came to me as I typed it and I figured i'd add it for posterity sake.
So I think there is room for a little of both, but big piece certainly was the power given to the Nails that allow the Swords to be. And that comes as a result of the events occurring and the importance placed upon those events later by humanity as well.
--- End quote ---
Ok, I really like that, it fits everything I can think of, based on our stated assumpions.
So lets take a step back and examine the other possibility: What if the items were Prepared ahead of time (empowered for Ritual purposes)? Setting aside the question of Who and Why, What would the items have been made to do? Based on the classic story I tend to think that, whomever was behind it, Jesus was aware of it if not an active participant of The Plan, but Im not attached to that.
Each possibility has an unknown factor involved, and Im not sure which is more likely. If they were empowered byt he events themselves, the question is Why those 5/6 items alone got empowered (to that degree at least), while there are other equally famous relics associated with it: the Scourge he was whipped with, the whipping post, The Seamless Coat, the Veil of Veronica in particular (which aurguably fits the theme better than the Shroud). And let's not forget my personal favorite Holy Relic, the Holy Prepuce. But it could all be there in the background/shadows the the DV specific history and we simply havent been made aware of it. But that is the exact same problem with the idea of them being prepared ahead of time: we have to ask Who and Why and How and all of that. It could easily be made to make sense in the DV, but we just dont know yet (or really have anything much to go on).
Eldest Gruff:
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 01, 2015, 06:37:40 PM ---Ok, I really like that, it fits everything I can think of, based on our stated assumpions.
So lets take a step back and examine the other possibility: What if the items were Prepared ahead of time (empowered for Ritual purposes)? Setting aside the question of Who and Why, What would the items have been made to do? Based on the classic story I tend to think that, whomever was behind it, Jesus was aware of it if not an active participant of The Plan, but Im not attached to that.
Each possibility has an unknown factor involved, and Im not sure which is more likely. If they were empowered byt he events themselves, the question is Why those 5/6 items alone got empowered (to that degree at least), while there are other equally famous relics associated with it: the Scourge he was whipped with, the whipping post, The Seamless Coat, the Veil of Veronica in particular (which aurguably fits the theme better than the Shroud). And let's not forget my personal favorite Holy Relic, the Holy Prepuce. But it could all be there in the background/shadows the the DV specific history and we simply havent been made aware of it. But that is the exact same problem with the idea of them being prepared ahead of time: we have to ask Who and Why and How and all of that. It could easily be made to make sense in the DV, but we just dont know yet (or really have anything much to go on).
--- End quote ---
Well the easiest answer is one of two. Either the Passion, Crucifixion and Resurrection were all a ritual in and of themselves to specifically empower these items, OR the same events of which all these items were involved in is the reason they garnered this power.
I tend to favor something more towards the latter because the event itself is arguably the single most relevant and important set of aspects surrounding Jesus' life. I mean this was supposed to be the whole reason he was born, to die for humanities sins. That kind of attachment has made these items revered worldwide for centuries. All the other items you mention, while some have direct involvement even, I would argue are nowhere near the same top tier level of 'importance' as has been placed on the five bit items plus the nails. And I think since we've already got the in book example of the fake Shroud lending us credence to faith empowering even a useless rag...that it still fits the in book rationale as to why these items specifically mean so much more than the holy foreskin or the Scourge for instance.
Because if I walked up to a random person on the street and asked them what the Seamless Robe was i'd get the glazed over look...but mention the Holy Grail and at a minimum you get a Monty Python quote, but you get my point. So I think its very easy to differentiate which ones really matter even if we're sticking to a strictly 'belief' empowerment theme granted by the importance of the event itself. For myself personally I think the five items chosen in this story are realistically far more well known than that second level you illustrated, even over the few that were directly involved in Passion but weren't in the Vault.
Concurrently when you bring in an idea as you had with the Egyptian example which fit so well to the items, Nails too accepting my rationale, the others (maybe Veil excluded) seem like a stretch at best to fit the themes. And since I liked that theme I think it lends credence to the importance of these items over the others based on 'fame' for lack of a better term as being valid.
As for the idea the items were prepped beforehand, if it turns out to be the case then that's cool too but unlike the Swords which are 'easy' to attribute other version from in history...I have yet to see a real comprehensive list of examples of prior representation for these items as we know them now.
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