The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
He Couldn't Lose [SG Spoilers]
megarows:
--- Quote from: Argonometra on July 01, 2015, 12:56:40 PM ---If Harry is any indication, the Fae created and bear Mantles because of natural processes: to protect themselves, to protect others, to fight and/or survive better. Remember, Mab doesn't spend her days partying or swimming in mountains of gold: she fights Outsider incursions, she kills traitors, she disciplines the mightiest army Earth has ever known. ("Power has purpose," says Mother Winter in CD.)
Nature is not some flawless harmony where everybody gets what they want. Natural processes always conflict with each other- often to the detriment of nature itself- but that doesn't make them any less natural. It is natural for humans to dislike being cold (because cold is dangerous): therefore, it is natural for humans to build shelters. The resulting houses are no more artificial than the rain wearing them down.
Similarly, Mantle creation is a natural process. Unhealthy, yes- for the Fae involved, and perhaps even the world. But it is not unnatural, or unusual, for any creature to seek power.
--- End quote ---
You are getting hung up on the verbiage of the word "nature" and missing my point, I think.
The concept of nature as gaia is not my viewpoint. Nature is not some monolithic whole. It doesn't matter wnat natural behavior is for humans. All that matters is when you hold back Lake Mead, eventually your shit breaks and everyone in Cottonwood Cove has a real bad day.
You can say Hoover Dam is natural, the water will not care. You just drown. It is not a value judgement, it is not the plot of Final Fantasy VII. It is gravity, cause and effect, thermodynamics, entropy, inevitability.
--- Quote ---We know that the fae queens have used their Table to increase their Power, and can assume that some (but certainly not all) of that was Human Sacrifice.
--- End quote ---
It's the only known way mantles get created in DF. Sure, Butcher can define an alternative, say... petting kittens... but it is fundamentally the same for what I am saying. You have X number of human lives or kitten pets that go into the mantle. Each is worth Y energy. However massive your human sacrifices or harem of kittens is, it is finite. Nothing escapes entropy, not magic in DF, not even the sun.
And sure, if you keep up sacrificing on the stone table and adding energy, it will extend that. But never infinitely. And the fae queens remain vulnerable to other things as we saw in SK and elsewhere that an untainted atmospheric weather system would not be. Which is the same reason you can no longer drive over the Hoover Dam and they built a bypass. Which is the same reason Shardik was created in The Dark Tower.
namkcas:
--- Quote ---Why didn't using the red court's bloodline curse, powered by human sacrifice, drive Harry insane?
--- End quote ---
1. Harry was not involved in any of the Human Sacrifices.
2. The Curse's target ended up being inhuman.
If we go back to the laws of magic, there seems to be a complete distinction between killing a Human and killing a Red Court Vampire. The latter (associated with the problems of Black Magic) seems to be taint free. Since Harry only killed RCV's there was no problem. If he had killed people, well something else may have happened.
As an extension of this, you would have to look at the Fellowship of St. Giles. Harry did not kill any of the Humans. He killed their Vampire 1/2 and the loss of that aged the Humans past their lifespan.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: namkcas on July 01, 2015, 05:44:24 PM ---If we go back to the laws of magic, there seems to be a complete distinction between killing a Human and killing a Red Court Vampire. The latter (associated with the problems of Black Magic) seems to be taint free. Since Harry only killed RCV's there was no problem. If he had killed people, well something else may have happened.
As an extension of this, you would have to look at the Fellowship of St. Giles. Harry did not kill any of the Humans. He killed their Vampire 1/2 and the loss of that aged the Humans past their lifespan.
--- End quote ---
Yup. Legally The Laws only ever apply to what is done to Mortals. Mtaphysically I think it's a bit more subjective than that. For example I think you're average Warden would have no fallout from Killing a White Court Vampire, but Harry has a more personal perspective and sees them as actual People. Similarly a Wizard who can speak to animals might have more issues killing them with magic, Thralling them, etc, depending on how their own views of said animals had been changed by contact.
knnn:
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 01, 2015, 06:41:14 PM ---Yup. Legally The Laws only ever apply to what is done to Mortals. Mtaphysically I think it's a bit more subjective than that. For example I think you're average Warden would have no fallout from Killing a White Court Vampire, but Harry has a more personal perspective and sees them as actual People. Similarly a Wizard who can speak to animals might have more issues killing them with magic, Thralling them, etc, depending on how their own views of said animals had been changed by contact.
--- End quote ---
I'm quite interested in the Metaphysical aspects about breaking the Laws. While the exact amount of "objective corruption" (for the lack of a better term) one gets might depend slightly on the relative morality of the wizard, I think the fact remains that killing mortals (and possibly only humans) with magic seems to universally confer some amount of "objective corruption", be them Harry or Cassius.
This begs the question of course of what exactly qualifies as "human" for purposes of magic and why Wizards are included while Whampires/Denarians are not.
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WAG: My own theory on this is that we've been told that the Laws of Magic can slowly change and that "belief" can have a strong influence on how your magic works. Add to this mix the way "mass belief" works for the various gods/pantheons, and we get the idea that maybe the reason you get "objective corruption" for killing human (and humans only) is because that what the wizards of the White Council collective believe.
WAG 2: Personally, I'd take this a bit further. Remember Exodus 22:18? The Bible there is explicitly saying that "Black Magic" is *EVIL* (tm). Thus my wag-conjecture is that "what constitutes human" for the "objective corruption" of the metaphysical Laws of Magic comes directly from the definition of "human" in the Bible.
In short:
1) Billions believe in the Bible +
2) Bible defines "Human" +
3) Bible mentions black magic as evil =
== Using black magic against "humans" (as defined in the Bible) makes you "Evil" (objective corruption).
megarows:
I guess I can see how "against humans" explains the RCV bass cannon and Kumori rezzing that dude, but how do the mantles created by black magic ascension rituals avoid being objects of evil? Or is it that the side effects go to the creator alone?
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