Author Topic: The legality of a True Shapeshifter PC and how to work with accidental spotlight  (Read 4274 times)

Offline Kennifus Prime

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Below is a character from the campaign I'm running. During a conversation tonight with the other PC's about the DFRPG system the topic of this character came up and we began to second guess it's layout. After looking further I think everything is good, but I figured I'd run it by you guys to be sure. The character is the son of a mortal woman and a Fetch, making him a Changeling (YS pg 74). Please take a look at the current character sheet and then I'll explain in greater detail after it.

ASPECTS
HIGH CONCEPT: Changeling Mercenary For Hire
TROUBLE: A Fetch Killed My Mother
ASPECT: Family Of Monster Hunters
ASPECT: Gotta Catch Em’ All!
ASPECT: Grateful To Dorian Grey
ASPECT: Duval Detective
ASPECT: I Ain’t Fraid Of No…
ASPECT: Johnny’s Biggest Fan

SKILLS +36/36
SUPERB (+5): Lore, Scholarship
GREAT (+4): Deceit, Presence
GOOD (+3): Conviction Discipline
FAIR (+2): Contacts, Empathy, Intimidation, Rapport
AVERAGE (+1): Burglary, Craftsmanship, Investigation, Resources

STUNTS
No Stunts taken at this time.

POWERS
TRUE SHAPESHIFTING [-4] (YS pg. 177)

MODULAR ABILITIES [-6] (YS pg. 177)

HUMAN FORM [+1] (YS pg. 176)

REFRESH
BASE: 10
SPENT: 9
ADJUSTED: 1

STRESS
PHYSICAL: OO
MENTAL: OOOO
SOCIAL: OOOO

CONSEQUENCES
MILD (ANY):
MODERATE (ANY):
SEVERE (ANY):
EXTREME (ANY):


Question #1: Is Human Form something that can actually be taken here? According to the book it grants +1 Refresh as long as "you specify at least 2 points worth of Supernatural Powers". The character constantly uses -4 Refresh in Powers via his Modular Abilities (Which actually uses -6 Refresh due to the -2 Refresh "cost" of Modular Abilities.). The thing is, he is never in a "Regular Joe" form. His "resting form" (a.k.a. "I'm in this form unless I otherwise specify.") utilizes Powers via Modular Abilities. So can you still gain the +1 Human Form bonus for having the "capability" to become a "Regular Joe"? Even if you never choose to do so? The reason this is important is without that +1 Refresh from Human Form his character would be using -10 Refresh, which would make him a NPC.
 
Question #2: The character's "resting form" (Mentioned in Question #1.) uses the Physical Immunity Power (YS pg 186) at a whopping -8 Refresh, however, this is mitigated by attaching The Catch (YS pg 185). The Catch is Cold Iron as he is a Changeling with Fetch heritage. Since he is protected from everything except something specific he gets a +0. Then, since The Catch is something anyone could reasonably access (cold iron) he gets a +2. And finally, since pretty much anyone with knowledge of the supernatural would know a child of fae is weak to cold iron he gets another +2. This means he is able to take the Physical Immunity of -8 Refresh at the cost of -4 Refresh. His Modular Abilities has just enough to cover this. He sometimes switches to something like Inhuman Strength (YS pg 183) and Supernatural Toughness (YS pg 186) for a total of -6 Refresh. When doing something like this we've been playing it where The Catch only gives him a +3 Refresh discount (Since Catches cannot reduce the total cost of your Toughness Powers below -1 Refresh.). And if he was to take something like Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Strength he'd get no Catch discount at all as he has no Toughness Powers taken at that time. All of this seems to be how it should be played, but I wanted to make doubly sure.
 
At the end of the day the subject was brought up, because I think the other players feel a bit... "un-needed" with him around. His base Skills (As you can see above.) are set to be super high in regards to Social capabilities. Then if he needs to be combat oriented he just shuffles the Skills to be so and throws whatever Powers he needs at the moment onto himself. He does not play the character as a "ball hog" (To use a basketball term.) on purpose, but I think some of the other players may feel the character lends himself to be so just based on his design.
 
We're almost to the end of our second campaign arc, so unless something in the character is actually wrong rules/mechanics wise we won't be changing him in any way. I'm mostly curious in making sure the character is "legal" and then seeking advice on how to make sure the other characters don't feel like they are sidekicks to a one-man show. Sorry if any of this seems super simple, but this is my first FATE game, first DFRPG game, and first time GM'ing any game system at all.
 
Thanks in advanced.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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He's legal-ish.

If you check out the Shapeshifting Power section introduction on page 174 of Your Story, it talks about how the human mind can't really handle True Shapeshifting. Which seems kinda like an attempt to stop PCs from taking it. But it's not actually forbidden.

And the Toughness Power section introduction on page 184 says that Physical Immunity is nearly always reserved for potent NPCs.

Similarly, I don't think there's any rule saying you have to assume your unpowered form sometimes. But the Power is clearly supposed to be a drawback, so it's kind of a spirit-of-the-rules situation. (This is one reason I like the Limitation homebrew Power.)

So yeah. Legal-ish.

And I think you're interpreting Modular Catches correctly.

Rules-lawyering aside...

Your player has built a very powerful character. He's done a good job of optimizing. Good for him! But if the other players aren't designing their characters to the same level, this can be a problem.

The solution depends on your group, but maybe you could have him remove Human Form and go down to 3 form points. That removes Physical Immunity, which is honestly kinda broken, and limits his power selection somewhat.

Might also be a good idea to talk to the other players, and look for ways to make them stronger. It's often possible to power up a character quite a bit without changing their concept at all.

Offline jftravis

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Re: a human mind not being able to handle True Shapeshifting... well, this character isn't entirely human, to begin with, so I'd half buy into the idea. The other half, the part that IS human, isn't going to be so lucky. Remember, the character ultimately has to face The Choice, and in my head, every time he changes into something radically NOT human, he's drifting away from choosing "human". He should have an easily-compelled Aspect to cover this; perhaps Takes A Monster To Know One (maybe replace the ASPECT: Family Of Monster Hunters).

Downgrade the Physical Immunity to Mythic (still usually seen in NPCs) or Supernatural Toughness (more acceptable at PC level). Sure, he's the scion of a spirit being... but until he Chooses "Fetch", he's stuck with a body made of normal matter, regardless of what he's shaped like at any given time. Also, the standard fetch Immunity is 'only against magic, and only when the caster is afraid of the fetch' (OW44). Generic, full-spectrum Immunity isn't a typical Fetch trick.

Much of the above brings up my biggest issue with the character, from a GM and story standpoint: nothing about the character, other than his Trouble, says "Fetch". I'd more expect something like Emotional Vampire: Fear somewhere in the mix.

As far as his 'unpowered form' is concerned, I'd be more likely to accept the discount if there ARE ways to to get him into that form. Otherwise, I'd go with Human Guise (-0) (YW176), which allows him to look entirely human UNLESS he makes use of his supernatural abilities. I tend to fall back on the mantra "If it's not a disadvantage, then you don't get a break for it being a disadvantage" for situations like this.
You say "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" like it's a bad thing...

Offline dragoonbuster

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I'd just say "You can't have physical immunity," frankly. It's a broken power for PCs and I never allow straight "Immunity to Everything but X" -- I allows "Immunity to X" style powers.

If they have Human Form, then the powers attached to that are only available when in an obviously non-human form (which is the whole point of getting a rebate refresh). So "resting" form with toughness (or Immunity, if you must) all the time is great! Until they need to go to the store to buy bread or something, then an eight-foot juggernaut with purple skin and flaming hair (or whatever) is going to turn some heads.
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Offline wyvern

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The Catch is Cold Iron as he is a Changeling with Fetch heritage. Since he is protected from everything except something specific he gets a +0. Then, since The Catch is something anyone could reasonably access (cold iron) he gets a +2. And finally, since pretty much anyone with knowledge of the supernatural would know a child of fae is weak to cold iron he gets another +2.
This is actually only a +2 catch for him - the researchability factor is a zero, not a +2.  Why?  Oh, sure, everyone knows that a child of the fae is weak to cold iron.  But does everyone instantly know he's a child of the fae?  You'd have to actually know him as an individual to get that part.

Edit: This is compounded by True Shapeshifting, of course.  Someone without that might reasonably merit a +1 for researchability, if there were some definite (if perhaps obscure) signs of what they were.  But when you can look like anything, it becomes very very hard to justify even a +1 for catch researchability; a clever shapeshifter would deliberately look like some type of creature with a different vulnerability.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 02:35:22 PM by wyvern »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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No way. That standard would give basically everybody +0 for researchability. Unless his nature is actively hidden, his family isn't talking, magical senses don't pick up on his nature, etc...he gets a researchability rebate.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 04:24:38 PM by Sanctaphrax »

Offline wyvern

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Nonsense.  If you look at OW, even most of the actual fae only get a +3 rebate - and when you read the books, you find out why.  Consider, for example, the Gruffs.  Harry had to go do some research to find out that they were fae.  That's a clear example of a +1 researchability.

And again, True Shapeshifting plays into this a lot.  It's the same reason you can't get a +2 IoP rebate from a katana if it grants you glamours - the powers you've got by default make it easy to conceal, even if it normally wouldn't be.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 06:51:05 PM by wyvern »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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I very strongly disagree, and I have an argument I'd like to make, but I don't want to derail the thread. So I'll just note my objection.

Offline WadeL

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Question #2: The character's "resting form" (Mentioned in Question #1.) uses the Physical Immunity Power (YS pg 186) at a whopping -8 Refresh, however, this is mitigated by attaching The Catch (YS pg 185). The Catch is Cold Iron as he is a Changeling with Fetch heritage. Since he is protected from everything except something specific he gets a +0. Then, since The Catch is something anyone could reasonably access (cold iron) he gets a +2. And finally, since pretty much anyone with knowledge of the supernatural would know a child of fae is weak to cold iron he gets another +2. This means he is able to take the Physical Immunity of -8 Refresh at the cost of -4 Refresh. His Modular Abilities has just enough to cover this. He sometimes switches to something like Inhuman Strength (YS pg 183) and Supernatural Toughness (YS pg 186) for a total of -6 Refresh. When doing something like this we've been playing it where The Catch only gives him a +3 Refresh discount (Since Catches cannot reduce the total cost of your Toughness Powers below -1 Refresh.). And if he was to take something like Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Strength he'd get no Catch discount at all as he has no Toughness Powers taken at that time. All of this seems to be how it should be played, but I wanted to make doubly sure.

So what is this resting form of his that has Physical Immunity?

Are you just letting him declare he's shifting into "Form of look like what I normally do except I'm immune to harm", "Form of Looking like I normally do, except strong and fast", etc?

If you treat these Powers as purely mechanics based, you'll run into big problems. Hero and GURPS can handle that, but that's not really what Dresden Files is designed for.

Make him start by picking what form he is going into, and then tell him where his Modular Abilities go. You don't have to be draconian about it, and for True Shapeshifting you can probably let him make up forms that don't exist in nature/supernature ("I want to change into a troll-like creature but also covered in spikes!"), but the powers taken and skill shuffle that happens should be dictate by the form. The powers should probably also relate pretty strongly to the physical form taken (so you shouldn't be picking up powers like Seelie Magic or Domination or whatever just because you're shifting into a shape that has them, because those powers don't really come from the shape).

So he can say "I want to shift into being a troll", and then you can tell him either a) what Powers he gets as a Troll and what skill shuffles he should do, or b) that he doesn't have enough refresh in modular abilities to be a troll.

Anyway, like I said, you don't have to be draconian about it and he can certainly suggest what powers and skills a given form should have. But start with the narrative - what form is he assuming? - and have the mechanics flow from that.

I bet you that solves 9/10ths of your problems right there, if only because shapes that have high level of physical powers tend to be pretty bloody obvious.

Offline Taran

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I would only allow human form if he has a form that has no powers tied (or a very limited number of powers)to it and only if he has an aspect related to it (so you can compel the character into being/or staying in that form).

The point of human form is there are times that you don't have or have limited access to powers.  If you always have access to your powers/modular abilities, then the power should not apply.  Take Human guise instead.

He has True shapeshifting which means he never needs to be in his "unpowered form" because he can always look like a 'mundane'.  If that's the case, human form shouldn't apply.

In other words, a creature like A skinwalker doesn't have human form even though he can 'look' human.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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I bet you that solves 9/10ths of your problems right there, if only because shapes that have high level of physical powers tend to be pretty bloody obvious.

That's not actually true. Nothing in Modular Abilities' writeup suggests that spending a lot of form points has to make you look obviously inhuman. And even if it did, it wouldn't fix the problems here at all. The guy only has 4 form points, and apparently mostly takes Inhuman Powers when he's not using PI.

DFRPG Powers might not be quite as flavour-neutral as the abilities in some systems, but they're often quite close. Claws isn't necessarily claws, after all. And generally speaking, the system works better when you're willing to reskin things.

Anyway, like I said, you don't have to be draconian about it and he can certainly suggest what powers and skills a given form should have. But start with the narrative - what form is he assuming? - and have the mechanics flow from that.

That's not how it works either. By the writeup of Modular Abilities, he gets to choose his Powers. And True Shapeshifting works like Beast Change, which lets you choose your new skills as long as you don't raise social/mental skills.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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I wouldn't allow human form in this case.  He's human in appearance as often as he wants, so there's no reason for him to give up his powers to look human.  The way it's being used is contrary to the design intent, and the rebate isn't a limitation.

I don't think his powerset fits his flavor very well at all: fetches don't seem to be able to shapechange at will, but rather are limited by the fears of their victims.  By the rules, you have to have an aspect which justifies taking powers.  Changelings are about a choice between human and fey, and he has no reason to make that choice because he can literally become either at will.

I also don't allow Physical Immunity for PCs, except for things like "Immune to Fire".

Offline WadeL

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That's not actually true. Nothing in Modular Abilities' writeup suggests that spending a lot of form points has to make you look obviously inhuman. And even if it did, it wouldn't fix the problems here at all. The guy only has 4 form points, and apparently mostly takes Inhuman Powers when he's not using PI.

DFRPG Powers might not be quite as flavour-neutral as the abilities in some systems, but they're often quite close. Claws isn't necessarily claws, after all. And generally speaking, the system works better when you're willing to reskin things.

That's not how it works either. By the writeup of Modular Abilities, he gets to choose his Powers. And True Shapeshifting works like Beast Change, which lets you choose your new skills as long as you don't raise social/mental skills.

Firstly, you still have to follow your high concept justification of your powers. Claws don't have to be Claws - a Red Court Vampire can take Claws to represent Fangs. But a RCV can't take Claws representing, I dunno, "Burning fists of fire", because powers have to follow high concept and setting logic.

For Modular Abilities specifically, even if we're no longer worried about high concept and are focusing on the power itself, its main effect is literally called Function Follows Form. It starts off with "You may shapeshift your form to take on a variety of abilities [...]" - to me that says pretty strongly that you pick your abilities based on the form you're in, not just willy-nilly.

Beast Change doesn't specify that you have to have your skills shuffled according to your form - you could, indeed, by a strict reading of the rules, take the form of a Sloth and use that to switch your Athletics up to Superb for phenomenal Sloth-acrobat dodging abilities.

But I really don't think Dresden Files is very well suited to doing "strict by the wording" reading of powers without GM oversight making sure what you do mechanically fits in with the narrative. That's my advice to the original poster at least.

Offline Taran

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I agree except you can use modular abilities for lots of things:

A supernatural martial artist who focuses his Chi in different ways to go from Super fast to Super Strong or to Punch Through Concrete (taking claws).

All these 'configurations' have the same form. (a martial artist)

In this particular instance, though, I would follow the 'Function Follows Form'.

A fetch takes on different forms and acquires its ability through those forms.  I don't really see a human with claws without actually having claws (or fangs).

I have to agree with some of the other people that his powers don't really fit the abilities of a fetch. 
Incite Fear should definitely be on the character sheet.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Firstly, you still have to follow your high concept justification of your powers. Claws don't have to be Claws - a Red Court Vampire can take Claws to represent Fangs. But a RCV can't take Claws representing, I dunno, "Burning fists of fire", because powers have to follow high concept and setting logic.

I'm aware. But that's obviously not a problem here. A fetch changeling who shapeshifts is a pretty normal concept for this game.

For Modular Abilities specifically, even if we're no longer worried about high concept and are focusing on the power itself, its main effect is literally called Function Follows Form. It starts off with "You may shapeshift your form to take on a variety of abilities [...]" - to me that says pretty strongly that you pick your abilities based on the form you're in, not just willy-nilly.

You pick your abilities and your form and they should match. But there's nothing in the book that even implies that powerful forms have to be obviously inhuman.

And even if there was, it wouldn't affect this character significantly.

And even if it did, looking weird is mostly Compel fodder. It would focus the spotlight even more heavily on this character.

But I really don't think Dresden Files is very well suited to doing "strict by the wording" reading of powers without GM oversight making sure what you do mechanically fits in with the narrative. That's my advice to the original poster at least.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. "The game is badly written, so fudge it"? "This is a story-based game, so you should use a lot of discretion"?

Either way, I disagree. The writing's not perfect, but it still runs pretty well out of the box. Even stuff like your acrobat-sloth works out surprisingly well when you use Aspects. And other games with similar concepts, like Fate Accelerated, run very well with robotic rule-adherence.

Incite Fear should definitely be on the character sheet.

No it shouldn't. It's almost completely unconnected to the character concept. It'd be offensively out of place.

Sure, it's central to the parent. But Changelings don't always reflect their parents that closely. You pick and choose from their list of Powers, and you don't have to pick the iconic ones first. Which is good, because it means two very different Changelings can have similar parents.

...

The reason I'm being so argumentative about these points is that they connect to a very common and very bad response to situations like this one. Namely, handicapping powerful characters by declaring them narratively inappropriate.

Trying to fix a character's mechanics by attacking their story side is just not ever going to work.

Because even if the player listened, and changed their concept around, it wouldn't fix the problems. A character can be totally awesome narratively and also game-wreckingly powerful. And if you "punish" them with in-game blowback, you're just making the problem worse. Because then the events of the story are centred on this character, who gets to outshine everyone even more. Plus, the other PCs might not be able to handle punishments aimed at such a strong character.

With that in mind, that character there looks better story-wise than most of the PCs I've seen. The mechanical side's a bit sketchy, but the concept seems solid.

And anyway, the whole line of criticism is rude. The player sounds like a decent person, and they deserve better than that old "role-playing, not roll-playing" canard.