The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Who Attacked Arctis Tor, and Why
Conspiracy Theorist:
--- Quote from: ShadowWing on February 13, 2015, 08:34:01 PM ---We have confirmation in Small Favor that Nic had no clue that any of the Fallen (at least any in his court) were present at AT. IIRC, Harry pretty much calls out Nic about the attack when they had the convo at the Shea and Nic blinked in shock and hsi manner did seem to change has his brain was going overdrive at who among the fallen would do it...and why.
So we can count Nic is not involved in any form with the attack in PG.
Next question is Thorny acting alone or in concert with other Fallen on this?
--- End quote ---
The Hellfire produced was in Harry's estimation far greater than he could produce, so either it was a whole passle of Denarians working together, or it was a user of Hellfire more powerful than a Denarian. Fallen Archangel perhaps?
It would make sense if it was the Big Guy behind everything.
Left in Arctis actor was the I egged Lea, perhaps she was the target.
wyltok:
Keep in mind, the barges were not stolen by a bunch of Outsiders in the middle of the night, they were rented, along with pretty much every other boat available. And the people inside the barges were mortals, even if there were Outsiders protecting the barges in the water.
That means manpower, and resources and someone with sufficient magical knowhow to figure out a spell to unravel Merlin's creation of Demonreach.
Nemesis has gone corporate.
Harry's great arrogance was in assuming that the people in charge of the Circle were wizards opposing the White Council. Cold Days taught him that the White Council is just a sideshow in all this.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 13, 2015, 08:34:49 PM ---Going off the WoJ below, I'm convinced there is no 'Black Council'. The 'Black Council' is actually Nemesis and the Outsiders manipulating things. I'm willing to concede that there may be a Circle, which is incorporating mortal/monster cooperation. But the 'Black Council' that showed up in COLD DAYS was revealed to be Nemesis & Co.
--- End quote ---
Nemesis is just a tool or cat's paw for what Mother Summer called simply, The Enemy...
Phariah:
--- Quote from: Eldest Gruff on February 13, 2015, 08:13:23 PM ---Mab owed Anduriel a favor from way back when she became watcher over the Outer Gates, there is a WOJ floating around about it from not that long ago. Nothing to do with Arctis Tor.
--- End quote ---
never seen it. i still stand behind Mab involved in it more so than an enemy attack. that reads more like deception than threat. if the debt is as you say, i can easily switch gears to a tricked Denarion lead/ Circle grp trying a fast strike to free Lea. they were set-up by Mab thus clearing the way for Harry.
cause seriously, you think Harry was getting in there if it wasn't wrecked?
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Mira on February 13, 2015, 10:22:42 PM --- Nemesis is just a tool or cat's paw for what Mother Summer called simply, The Enemy...
--- End quote ---
Or 'The Enemy' is another nickname for Nemesis, like 'The Adversary'.
But I agree that there's a chance Nemesis is just a Walker, in which case the Big Bad is still the Outsiders, but we haven't seen the master. Probably Lord of Slowest Terror.
--- Quote from: Phariah on February 13, 2015, 10:42:20 PM ---never seen it. i still stand behind Mab involved in it more so than an enemy attack. that reads more like deception than threat. if the debt is as you say, i can easily switch gears to a tricked Denarion lead/ Circle grp trying a fast strike to free Lea. they were set-up by Mab thus clearing the way for Harry.
cause seriously, you think Harry was getting in there if it wasn't wrecked?
--- End quote ---
I don't think Harry would have had to go there if it wasn't wrecked. I also don't think Mab would allow someone to destroy her home and its guards just to lure someone in. Especially since it appears that at least some of them (Namshiel and others that she said would pay) are still at large. And the fact that she seemed upset about people attacking her place. Of course, Marcone acting mad that one of his people got killed in his own plot that used his place sounds similar. Maybe both of them are nuts.
--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on February 13, 2015, 09:14:13 PM ---The Hellfire produced was in Harry's estimation far greater than he could produce, so either it was a whole passle of Denarians working together, or it was a user of Hellfire more powerful than a Denarian. Fallen Archangel perhaps?
It would make sense if it was the Big Guy behind everything.
Left in Arctis actor was the I egged Lea, perhaps she was the target.
--- End quote ---
It was greater than Harry could produce as a non-Denarian who hadn't taken up the coin. There's always the chance that an actual Bearer with magical ability (like Namshiel apparently had) could tap more power than Harry ever got.
--- Quote from: Mira on February 13, 2015, 07:37:10 PM ---
My vote goes for "other" at this point, because I think there were allies involved. There is evidence of Denarian involvement, or someone or thing that could use Hell Fire, Harry confirmed that.. We know in the war against the Reds, there were Outsiders involved in the battles.. There were traders on the Senior Council, most likely working for the Circle.. There is also evidence that the attack was a tactic, and there was some kind of long game thing going on with Summer. It could be another group we haven't even heard of yet, using everyone as a gigantic cat's paw.
--- End quote ---
If you provide a who and why I'll add them to the list.
--- Quote from: Lawgiver on February 13, 2015, 06:51:23 PM ---SK has Lea telling Harry specifically that Mab and Titania are powers equivalent to Archangels and lesser deities. That's pretty tough. If Mab has power roughly equivalent to Uriel (archangel) who can destroy galaxies with only a little effort, I don't think a couple of Denarians (who are not Fallen themselves) and a few B-movie 'tentacled horrors' are gonna present much of a threat.
--- End quote ---
Did she say archangels? Because no way. I think she must have meant angels. Uriel can destroy galaxies. Mab can, at most, destroy Earth, or all of reality if she neglected her duties. But I think if she did that, the Mothers would get involved.
--- Quote from: knnn on February 13, 2015, 06:41:22 PM ---I keep going back to this WoJ:
Nah, they wouldn't even come close. I mean... it's like comparing apples and... and hand grenades.
Just about the best they could hope to accomplish would be to force Mab to make an effort. Though when Mab came for them, it wouldn't be a kick-down-the-door-and kick-ass kind of encounter. It would be a One-two-three-four-five-Hey-weren't-there SIX-of-us-here-a-second-ago? situation.
So even with a mix of Outsiders and Denarians, there is zero chance of hurting Mab.
--- End quote ---
That's why my 'Circle Attack' theory fits. It postulates that Mab wasn't there. And if Maeve did the time slowdown, then the couple of minutes Mab and Harry chatted could have been hours. Then when Mab came back, she kicked ass, while also realizing that Maeve was infected to be working with the bad guys against her.
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