Author Topic: Killing renfields with magic  (Read 18313 times)

Offline Theogony_IX

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2014, 05:26:45 PM »
I think there may also be an aspect of the debate here related to the use of humans as tools.  In Cold Days

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. . . there may be an argument to be made that when a mortal is turned into a tool through the use of supernatural powers, they no longer count as mortal and thus killing them does not break the laws.  If that applies, then killing a Renfield would not break the laws.

Offline PirateJack

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2014, 06:56:17 PM »
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2014, 08:34:37 PM »
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You've got that last bit slighting off.  Mortals and Fae, specifically, use the same magic, though with slightly different rules.  Vampires use a completely different energy, the same Death Energy that Necromancer's use, though the learned skills translate.  We have no idea what more obscure beings like Dragons or Rakshasa might use.

As to the rest, I tend to agree with you.  Legally speaking he might have a case, but as far as metaphysical taint I think he is stuck.  For the record I think the same about Sue, though. 
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Offline solbergb

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2014, 09:19:56 PM »
We don't really understand much about vampire magic because we only have Mr-Unreliable-Narrator Harry to go on, plus whatever he remembered to ask Bob about on camera.

For example, he figured you needed mortal magic to summon outsiders.  Then the Red Court summoned a bunch of them, but only in the Never Never.  So his current theory is "ok, formerly mortal critters can summon outsiders in the never never".  Which may or may not be true.

What we do know is it FEELS the same to Harry as necromancy, but isn't QUITE the same.   Harry's pretty up on necromancy after the Kemmler stuff, but probably doesn't know the precise differences between what vampires do and what a mortal necromancer does.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2014, 12:15:51 AM »
I suspect the Red Court had some human help with those Outsiders, personally.

Offline solbergb

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2014, 04:04:33 AM »
Possibly, but it may not have been a renegade wizard doing it in the usual 7th law violating way.  It might have been some duped vanilla mortals doing rituals with guidance from a vampire practitioner, like the Three Porn Wife coven + King Raith summoning He Who Walks Behind.

Offline PirateJack

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2014, 07:19:33 AM »
What we do know is it FEELS the same to Harry as necromancy, but isn't QUITE the same.   Harry's pretty up on necromancy after the Kemmler stuff, but probably doesn't know the precise differences between what vampires do and what a mortal necromancer does.

This is of course assuming that necromancy, Red Court magic and all the other brands are fundamentally different rather than being different expressions of the same power. Harry notes regularly in the latest books that the Winter Knight's mantle feels very different to his regular magic, but at the end of the day it's still magic.

I'd compare it to the difference between Summer and Winter magic or Soulfire and Hellfire. Two sides of the same coin, all wrapped up in the neat little package we call magic.

The only kind I would see as fundamentally different would be Outsider magic, because while life and death are intrinsic parts of the universe, They aren't.
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Offline Serack

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2014, 01:22:26 AM »
I created this topic in an attempt to examine the mechanisms of black magic corruption.

If nothing else it does collect all the WoJ's I know of on the subject as well as some of the stuff from the books
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Offline AstralBlade

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2014, 11:39:02 PM »
The Laws aren't built like that, I'm afraid. We have Word of Jim that pushing a person off a building with magic is still breaking the Law, because your magic is still involved. It's not a matter of 'this spell isn't meant to be lethal'. It's a matter of 'this spell caused someone to die'.

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They are, but not much. Harry only got around it by having the Blackstaff as his grandfather while Molly got very lucky that the Gatekeeper showed up at her trial.

I could go either way on this myself too, because I see Renfields as being little more than the shattered remains of a human being. That said, Rasmussen still had a soul despite being tortured into insanity by Ursiel, so insanity/mental trauma may not be enough.

So I'd probably adjudicate it based on the type of game being played. If you're going for a less serious adventure where the players kick ass and take names, I'd say no Lawbreaker. If it's a more serious game or one focused on horror, I'd say put it out there as an option. If you're a dick, do it and only tell them afterwards. :P

For the Skin Game reference I think that example was to illustrate
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Honestly it's an interesting subject. That being said, I think the magic has to be somehow directed in order to break a Law. For example, wind magic being used to blow someone off a building, the magic is being directed with not only the intent to cause fatal injury but a direct vehicle of said injury.

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Offline solbergb

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Re: Killing renfields with magic
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2014, 01:52:14 PM »
In some cases the type of magic resistance affects what can be done.  The example in the most recent book might not have worked on Lord Raith or the Scarecrow, as they might have a version that just dissolves any kind of magic, including things created by magic, where the trick Harry pulled could well be based on his analysis of the specific kind of countermagic used by the critter in question in Skin Game.

On a related topic, physical immunity clearly doesn't mean you can't stick aspects on the critters with physical force.  There's evidence of that in the last book too - but it does again depend on the flavor of the immunity.  To pick an easy example, if a demon is immune to fire, you could still perhaps blind it with a bright light or a cloud of smoke - but both maneuvers could be defeated against the wrong kind of demon (a sun demon is unlikely to be affected by bright lights, a smoke-elemental can likely also see through smoke in addition to being immune to fire).