PC Balancing Issues - Need Advice

[Theogony_IX]

Hi all, I'm new to RPGs and new to GMing, but I think I've got a fairly good grasp on the game rules and mechanics.  The issue I'm having is that my Wizard player seems to be throwing power around on a completely different level than my other players.  I put three of my players up against a Denarian in a learning session (my fourth players was not in attendance), and the wizard nearly took the Denarian out all by himself in two exchanges.  I'll give a basic description of the important parts of the conflict, then I'll list the primary parts of my player's characters.  Hopefully you all can give me some advice on what I may have done wrong, how you guys let your players build/play wizards, etc.

Sorcerer - Maneuver against Denarian lasting 2 exchanges, pass tag to Wizard. 6 shifts of power total.
Denarian - Huge attack against Sorcerer.
Wizard - 10 shifts summoned, 9 controlled tagging maneuver (1 shift fallout), after Denarian defense and armor - 15 shifts of stress,
Emissary of Power - Fists attack, after defense and armor - 5 shifts of stress.
Sorcerer - Maneuver against Denarian lasting 2 exchanges, pass tag to Wizard. 6 shifts of power total.
Denarian - Huge attack split between the 3 of them. Clear Minor Consequence.
Wizard - 9 shifts summoned, controlled tagging aspects consequences, and spending fate points, discipline roll finally equalling 12.  After defense and armor - 16 shifts of stress. Denarian taken out.

It's somewhat frustrating for my other players to watch one of them throwing around attacks in the high teens, and them only in the high tens.

Power level: Chest Deep

Evocation Wizard - Total Refresh Spent: 7
Conviction - 5
Discipline - 4
Lore - 2
Athletics - 3
Evocation Specialization - +1 Power Fire
Thaumaturgy Specialization - Undetermined
Focus Item 1 - +2 Control Offensive Fire
Focus Item 2 - +1 Power Offensive Fire
Focus Item 3 - +1 Control Defensive Spirit

Thaumaturgy Sorcerer - Total Refresh Spent: 7
Conviction - 3
Discipline - 5
Lore - 4
Athletics - 2
Evocation Specialization - +1 Power Fire
Thaumaturgy Specialization - +1 Complexity Diabolism
Focus Item 1 - +4 Complexity Summoning and Binding

Minor Talent Cop - Total Refresh Spent: 6 (1 power (custom ability "Truth Sight"), 5 stunts)
Guns - 5
---(Pistol Weapon:2, Stunt single use Weapon:4, Stunt Maneuver)---
Alertness - 5
Empathy - 4
Deceit - 4
Athletics - 3

Emissary of Power - Total Refresh Spent: 6
Inhuman Strength
Sponsored Magic - Channelling only
Guide My Hand
Marked by Power
Fists - 5
Endurance - 5
Conviction - 4
Athletics - 3
Discipline - 2


Has anyone else run into similar issues?

[bobjob]

Wizards can be powerful... but they can only be powerful for so long. Every time they cast they take mental stress and from the looks of it, your wizard was throwing out some serious power which should account for a consequence or two (or at least some serious stress). The other players wouldn't necessarily have to do this if they aren't casters themselves, meaning they can in theory go all day long. Not only that, but casters have the Laws of Magic to worry about and any Wizard will also have to potentially worry about the Unseelie Accords. You want to see your Wizard hampered? Throw in some mortals. Throw in a signatory of the Accords who is doing something nasty but is legally acting under the rules.

Not only that, but his Specializations seem off for the amount of Refresh spent. I think he should only have +1/+1 at this point, not +1/+1/+2

What's the power level of the campaign? Your Emissary seems to have two +5s but they are only using a minor amount of refresh.

[Theogony_IX]

The power level is Chest Deep, 8 refesh, 30 skill points.  Most of them have 2 skills at each level.  If I remember correctly, the wizard has only one skill at 5 and more skills at 2 and 1 than the others.

I think, those are focus items you're seeing on the wizard.  2 slots each from evocation and thaumaturgy.
+2 Control offensive fire
+1 Power offensive fire
+1 Control defensive spirit
Total of 4.

His specializations are:
+1 power to fire
As yet undetermined thaumaturgy specialization.

Or did I do something wrong there?

[Baron Hazard]

ive only ran a couple of games, but both of them had fairly wide arcs. And refresh has always been a pretty good balancer as far as i've run into.

There are certain times where certain people shined, and wizards can often be powerful, they have abit of an edge which comes from the drawback of fallout/backlash and finite supply. They have alot of power to dish out but the tank runs empty pretty quick, meanwhile your emissary of power (who isnt using all of his refresh it would seem) gets to throw his fist 5 + inhuman strength around, dozens of times if need be.

Also with that in mind, perhaps your sorceror, Emissary and Cop character may wanna be passing tags back and forth between them to help level the playing field, as that would make a difference.

I also dunno what Truth sight is or how it works, but if the character is that concerned about his combat viability he may find himself more suitable as a pure mortal for the extra 2 refresh and stacking combat stunts. TBH one of the most dangerous characters I had was a well-twinked, stunt-stacked prepared pure mortal. Granted not usually what I go for in my games, but he was actually more of a problem for me to balance than the wizards with the rest of them.

Id have to see full character sheets to say alot more on the subject, and if they are all looking for pure combat viability, we may be able to help bump them up abit. xD

Also its a matter of your setup: If these were just random thugs that'd be one thing and they'd prolly get wiped up by the wizard, but three denarians. Unless they were fighting three denarians that all happened to be magog, you are looking at some people with LOTS of power, but also scary clever and smart. Before attacking this group, they'd have done their research, they'd have pegged the wizard as the biggest threat from the get go, and from their theyd either purposefully force him to expend his power by staying on the defensive, or they'd use some magic of their own to lock him down. If they needed to attack, they'd coordinate and make him their number 1 target (hit him hard and fast, take down the heavy guns and mop up the rest.)

As with all things in fate, the narrative is a big factor.
 

[Sanctaphrax]

This is a common-ish issue. Wizards have really powerful attacks, and they're very easy to optimize.

Your example is a bit worse than average, though, because you've got a Sorcerer feeding Aspects to the Wizard and making him look better. Plus the encounter played to the Wizard's strengths, and the non-Wizard characters look rather unoptimized.

So I don't think you did anything wrong (unless you let him keep the shift of power that he lost to fallout), but there are ways you could mitigate this issue.

Wizards tend to be glass cannons unless they're strong in crafting. And yours isn't. In fact, your wizard is notably bad at crafting. So just hit him.

A smart opponent will always target the fragile but offensively powerful guy, and opponents with Speed or Stealth or just high Alertness can easily get the first punch in. If they can put a consequence on him, they can tag that to dodge his attacks or to hit him again. If you can put the Wizard on his back foot, he won't be so fearsome.

Also, long fights tend to be hard on Wizards. Maybe a smart opponent sends out some trash monsters to waste spells and steps in once the spellcasters are tired. Maybe there's a group of opponents, and they don't stay in the same zone so they can't be area-attacked easily.

If your opponents have Fate Points or access to sponsor debt, it might be a good idea for them to spend it early on weathering the Wizard's initial strikes. As you saw in this fight, one big attack can lead to another bigger attack when consequences are tagged.

If the other players are feeling inferior...point out how much benefit the Wizard got out the Sorcerer's maneuvers in that fight.  If they think the Wizard solo'd that Denarian, they're just wrong.

Maybe also rework the characters a bit...Inhuman Strength and Channelling are a really weak combination.

[solbergb]

DFRPG is a game where channeling or evocation can just bring more boom than anyone else, hands down, and also a game where rituals/thaumaturgy can tend to overshadow everything else in noncombat situations.   The game has a lot in common with Ars Magica that way, although non-spellcasters have a lot more scope to be mighty than a companion or grog.

The channeling spellcaster is something you just have to accept is going to get in his hits, unless you can lock him down or ambush him somehow.  Wave attacks are a good approach, and just having bad guys willing to turn big shift hits into consequences that the non-wizards can then tag, instead of being taken out can do quite a bit.  Also if your bad guys have any fate points when the fight is over that didn't come from losing the fight, you're not using their full potential.  The best way to deal with a huge shift wizard attack is to spend fate like mad until the targeting roll misses.

The main defense against thaumaturgy is pacing - keep the tension up so the ritual dude has to rely on their basic abilities most of the time, rather than always being able to stack a bunch of extra things up for the high grade thaumaturgy.  Also remember the limitations, primarily the need for a connection.  The skill monkeys in the party help you MAKE connections, making thaum possible at all, even if it as crude as the cop arresting somebody, taking their fingerprints and getting them to state their name while the wizard is watching....

[Theogony_IX]

Hmm, okay, so it sounds like I can balance the playing field a bit with tactical choices, which is what I was thinking of before I posted.  I hadn't considered any of the tactics you guys suggested, but they sound perfect.  I also want to encourage my players to fight smarter as well.  Rather than just throwing big punches, think of how to throw the right punches.  I think seeing some tactics like that from me will teach them to keep flexible.  Thank you.

My Minor Talent wanted a support character and is fairly happy with how it turned out.  His Truth Sight is a strange sort of assessment system he and I negotiated.  One of his stunts is a Guns Maneuver that gives the target an automatic -2 on their next action roll, and he must pass the tag from the maneuver to another player.

The Sorcerer just got into the game, what I described was his first session, and he seems pleased with it so far.  I think that's mainly due to a lack of reference points though.

My Emissary of Power player is the one who is feeling frustrated.  He likes games but he isn't a deep down gamer at heart so I've been watching his play style and tweaking his character for him as we go.  I'm definitely open to advice on his load out.  The idea behind his character is basically a fist of God, but rather than the White God from the New Testament, he wanted to be thematically connected to the Old Testament God, fire and brimstone and such.  For that he brought up these ideas:

Samson - Inhuman Strength
Moses - Control over fire and water
Ezekiel's visions - Guide My Hand

If you guys are willing to help, maybe we can come up with something thematically appropriate that synergizes better though.

[Sanctaphrax]

My first thought for "powerful Chest Deep Old Testament Emissary" would go something like this...

Superb: Conviction, Intimidation
Great: Discipline, Lore
Good: Presence, Endurance
Fair: Empathy, Athletics
Average: Alertness, Rapport

Guide My Hand [-1]
Sponsored Magic: Soulfire [-5]
Marked By Power [-1]

Holy Symbol (+2 offensive control for Soulfire)
Robes (5 shift block against attacks, 5 times per session)

That'll give him powerful attacks, decent defences, and really good Intimidation. Plus he'll be able to improvise skills he doesn't have at Superb with Guide My Hand.

[Baron Hazard]

However if he wants to go the more physical route, and you dont want everyone casting spells for diversity sake xD id consider simulating his elemental powers with claws/breath weapon. Though tbh i dont have my books on me and i havent looked at either in a long time. Also consider letting him drop marked by power, its a good roleplay tool but doesnt add alot for that refresh and the idea can still be paid for by his high concept.

As far as tactics dont forget to remind them that maneuvers can simulate attacks too. Its one thing i love about the system. For instance lets say your emmissary of power went toe to toe in a one on one. Instead of rolling to deal stress each time, he makes 3 consecutive maneuvers with fists, lets say, "seeing double" from a head blow, "popped knee" from a front kick to the knee and then "hyperextended elbow" from rolling the enemy into an armlock. Then when he finally goes for a big blow, hes looking at a +11 before rolling or spending any fate points.

I love the way it can be used that way in s fight.

[Theogony_IX]

Sanctaphrax built a very elegant character there, but yeah, I am a bit leery of going the spell caster route with two other casters already in the mix. I thought he might like the off-caster option to a physical character, but Sanctaphrax is probably right that it splits his potency a bit.  Maybe a thematic claws effect might be good to add to the I.H. strength.  Breath weapon does mention throwing a self generated weapon, which is potentially, very cool, but is, in essence, similar to casting a spell albeit a single rote with unlimited supply.  At least this way it feeds into his strength though.  The only other thing I can see is an item of power.  It might help beef up his defense a bit since it discounts.  If I drop the Marked by Power ability, that might allow him to have both of the above and gain a toughness or recovery ability as well depending on the size of the item.  Maybe like a Moses staff or something.  That would even make him a group tank which isn't bad.

Is there a maneuver Stunt idea out there that might act like a lure or provoke effect?

I'll ponder on this bit, but I'm always open to more suggestions.

[Taran]

Is there a maneuver Stunt idea out there that might act like a lure or provoke effect?

Taunt.  It's in YS under Intimidate.

[Baron Hazard]

Also any maneuver that makes sense could be invoked or tagged to force a course of action such as attacking a specific character.

[Taran]

Also any maneuver that makes sense could be invoked or tagged to force a course of action such as attacking a specific character.

Yeah, although intimidate has a specific trapping called taunt.  And my mistake, "infuriate" is the stunt that gives you +2 to taunt.

[Theogony_IX]

Hmm, that kind of tanky character has me excited.  I'll see what he thinks though.  I have a feeling he's going to want fire power.  Everybody wants to be the DPS engine.   

Thanks for your help, all.

Really good advice for balancing my spellcasters with my non spellcasters.

[Sanctaphrax]

You can get a fair bit of tankiness for 1 Refresh if you take Supernatural Toughness or Inhuman Toughness and Recovery with a +3 Catch. Which, for a holy warrior, might be something like wounds inflicted by people with free will.

And since nobody else in the group has physical powers like Strength and Speed, that might be a good niche for this guy. Supernatural Strength and a big sword makes for a lot of hitting power. Dunno how well that fits the holy warrior concept though.

I'd be inclined to keep Marked By Power because this guy sounds like a big Intimidation user, but it's not actually necessary.