Houserule proposal: first Rote spells in scene give no default stress

[Mr. Death]

The rulebook says stress is wiped at the end of a conflict -- you're confusing conflict in the general sense with the conflict in the game's specific sense. According to the game's rules, a conflict is a battle. The first conflict in that scene was Ramirez and Dresden vs. Madrigal and Vitto. They kill Madrigal, and Vitto calls in the ghouls. That's the end of that conflict, and the start of a new one as Harry brings in his own reinforcements.

[Mickey Finn]

"This is a perfectly true point.  It is also COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT as an argument in this context. "
"Or maybe, just maybe, I'm looking for ways the flaws might be fixed and opinions on possible solutions.  Nah, that's just too crazy."

Do we need to host a seminar of what is and is not appropriate on these forums?
Hint: You've replied to many posts, and most of the replies were well written. The above two are inappropriate to the forum.

[Sanctaphrax]

I do find it ironic that it's essentially impossible to recreate Harry Dresden as a character in the RPG without him becoming an NPC.  He simply couldn't gain experience quickly enough to pay the costs proposed for all of the abilities he has in-canon

Sure he could. There's an advancement track for him in the books, IIRC, and Deadmanwalking posted his own take on the Resources board.

Anyway, we've gone off-topic again. Regarding the proposed houserule, I ask again: what do you intend to cut to make up for the increased power of Wizards under that rule?

[narphoenix]

I do find it ironic that it's essentially impossible to recreate Harry Dresden as a character in the RPG without him becoming an NPC.  He simply couldn't gain experience quickly enough to pay the costs proposed for all of the abilities he has in-canon.

O.o No. I stat him up as more potent relative to everyone else's estimations, and it's fairly easy to give him Refresh enough to play with up until the Clusterfuck Trilogy (Changes-Cold Days). But those guys are basically their own major milestone boxes of chocolate. By Skin Game, he's definitely positive refresh.

[Melendwyr]

The rulebook says stress is wiped at the end of a conflict -- you're confusing conflict in the general sense with the conflict in the game's specific sense. According to the game's rules, a conflict is a battle. The first conflict in that scene was Ramirez and Dresden vs. Madrigal and Vitto. They kill Madrigal, and Vitto calls in the ghouls. That's the end of that conflict

  No, it's a continuation of the same conflict with different weapons.  Same battle, higher stakes.

There is no discontinuity in physical location - the entire encounter takes place in the cavern chamber.
There is no discontinuity in temporality - the entire encounter is continuous, without pauses, breaks, or interruptions, and the entities involved have to stay on their toes the entire time.
There is no discontinuity in the fundamental nature of the dangers and threats - I'd be willing to let a fistfight that turns into a car chase with gunfire count as two separate conflicts because the nature of the threats, and therefore the abstract 'stress', is so different between the two.  But that's not what we have here.

And, of course, the conflict that was initiated was a duel to the death between two Wardens and two WCVs.  The stakes are raised, but the basic conflict does not end until both vampires are dead - which does not occur until the caverns are blown.

If there were a single real example of a break, I'd let it suffice for a rest.  Say, something along the lines of that scene from The Phantom Menace where rotating force walls temporarily keep the combatants apart, and the bad guy paces while the good guy gets some meditation in.  That would count.  There was absolutely nothing like that.  Everyone is constantly in danger until they escape the killing field.

Which is precisely why Harry does that kiss with Lara to generate the force bubble that saves them both.  He was on his very last legs at the very end of the battle and needed something, anything, that he could feed into the spell to power it.  If he'd somehow cleared all his stress, mental and physical, he'd have been fresh as a daisy and wouldn't have needed to interact with a soul-sucking succubus to survive.

[bobjob]

Which is precisely why Harry does that kiss with Lara to generate the force bubble that saves them both.  He was on his very last legs at the very end of the battle and needed something, anything, that he could feed into the spell to power it.  If he'd somehow cleared all his stress, mental and physical, he'd have been fresh as a daisy and wouldn't have needed to interact with a soul-sucking succubus to survive.

Slightly off topic, I was curious just how "Harry the PC" pulled that off. Did he let Lara place a maneuver on him with her powers and tag it, did she hit him with a consequence that he tagged himself? I could also see him placing a Lore Maneuver on himself with his exposition about emotions and magic. Oh well. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

[Mr. Death]

  No, it's a continuation of the same conflict with different weapons.  Same battle, higher stakes.

Not really. That's only your extremely strict interpretation, not the only way to read the scene. Can you please accept that yours is not the only way to read a scene?

There is no discontinuity in physical location - the entire encounter takes place in the cavern chamber.

Please quote where the book says this is necessary to erase stress.

There is no discontinuity in temporality - the entire encounter is continuous, without pauses, breaks, or interruptions, and the entities involved have to stay on their toes the entire time.

Please quote where the book says this is necessary to erase stress.

And, come to think of it, this isn't true. After the Einherjar Squad's opening salvo, Harry outright says that they've created a quiet pocket, and he has at least a minute or two to talk to everyone, catch his breath, and strategize with Marcone about getting Lara's people out.

There is no discontinuity in the fundamental nature of the dangers and threats - I'd be willing to let a fistfight that turns into a car chase with gunfire count as two separate conflicts because the nature of the threats, and therefore the abstract 'stress', is so different between the two.  But that's not what we have here.

Yes, there is. Read the passage again. Between the end of the duel and the mental attack, at no point is Harry or Ramirez in direct conflict with Vittorio. There is a whole chapter or two where Vitto is, from the perspective of the gameplay, a non-entity.

So we have one conflict -- Harry and Ramirez vs. Vittorio and Madrigal. That conflict ends, Madrigal is taken out, while Vittorio makes a Concession (he's out of the immediate conflict with a loss, but changes the terms).

Then we have a second conflict, which is Harry, Ramirez, Murphy, Marcone, Hendricks, and the Einherjar Dream Team vs. Uber Ghouls. Vittorio is a background detail in this conflict, and not a participant from the immediate perspective of Harry et al.

And, of course, the conflict that was initiated was a duel to the death between two Wardens and two WCVs.  The stakes are raised, but the basic conflict does not end until both vampires are dead - which does not occur until the caverns are blown.

By your own personal reading of the scene, and by a definition of conflict that is not the game books' definition of conflict.

If there were a single real example of a break, I'd let it suffice for a rest.  Say, something along the lines of that scene from The Phantom Menace where rotating force walls temporarily keep the combatants apart, and the bad guy paces while the good guy gets some meditation in.  That would count.  There was absolutely nothing like that.  Everyone is constantly in danger until they escape the killing field.

The book does not have this requirement.

Which is precisely why Harry does that kiss with Lara to generate the force bubble that saves them both.  He was on his very last legs at the very end of the battle and needed something, anything, that he could feed into the spell to power it.  If he'd somehow cleared all his stress, mental and physical, he'd have been fresh as a daisy and wouldn't have needed to interact with a soul-sucking succubus to survive.

That's one possibility. The other possibility is that the GM set the difficulty of surviving it so high that Harry wasn't sure he could survive it on what he had left. He still has consequences, mental and physical. I've had players create declarations and bank aspects before they'd ever cast a single spell, as insurance.

[Melendwyr]

My vote is for a self-directed Lore maneuver, possibly combined with a FP declaration that let the player justify channeling a great deal of energy without picking up more stress.  Probably the GM would have set a low threshold on the roll because the whole thing is so cool; also, the pre-established properties of the caverns (that the walls were everywhere smoothed and without obstructions) were probably invoked heavily.  Sort of a Chekhov's Gun, only the gun was introduced without a plan and its purpose was spontaneously created much later.  (Sometimes it's good to leave dangling story hooks lying around.)  It's fortunate that they were so close to the story's end, with lots of time before the next began, because Harry probably picked up some serious consequences and burned through his entire reservoir of FPs.

See, this is why I like this system:  the people who made it clearly put a great deal of thought into reproducing the narrative reasoning behind the events in the Dresden Files novels.  The fact that it's possible to find multiple ways to describe that event is immensely impressive.  The general quality of the rules makes me want to find solutions for the few places the rules don't and can't reproduce the narrative very much.

[Dougansf]

So we have one conflict -- Harry and Ramirez vs. Vittorio and Madrigal. That conflict ends, Madrigal is taken out, while Vittorio makes a Concession (he's out of the immediate conflict with a loss, but changes the terms).

Then we have a second conflict, which is Harry, Ramirez, Murphy, Marcone, Hendricks, and the Einherjar Dream Team vs. Uber Ghouls. Vittorio is a background detail in this conflict, and not a participant from the immediate perspective of Harry et al.
By your own personal reading of the scene, and by a definition of conflict that is not the game books' definition of conflict.
The book does not have this requirement.
That's one possibility. The other possibility is that the GM set the difficulty of surviving it so high that Harry wasn't sure he could survive it on what he had left. He still has consequences, mental and physical. I've had players create declarations and bank aspects before they'd ever cast a single spell, as insurance.

I agree with this interpretation of scene changes.  I've had similar issues with the stress limitation on magic in the game, and analyzed the duel scene strongly to come to grips with it.  The scene breaks (and these forums) were integral to my understanding.

Arguably (IIRC), there may have been a brief social conflict between Dresden and Marcone at the gate, where Dresden convinces him to extract the key vamps.

[Melendwyr]

The rules discussion of 'Concessions' includes the following:

A concession has to pass muster with the group before it is accepted—the conditions of the loss still have to represent a clear and decisive disadvantage for your character. If the group (note that your opponent is part of the group for this!) feels like your character is getting off easy, you’ll need to rework the concession until it’s acceptable.

Escaping a duel-to-the-death would obviously incur some serious social penalties - such as becoming an exile that would be slain on sight.  But a 'concession' that involves putting your opponents in massively-increased danger?  The superghoul intervention would have killed off the entities that escaping the duel would incur penalties with.  Sure, it would probably mean a major debt with Cowl, but it in no way constitutes a 'win' for Team Dresden, even if those players accepted it on the terms of some of their enemies being guaranteed to die as a result.

I can't imagine the people I game with being willing to propose such a concession, much less accepting it.

[Mr. Death]

The rules discussion of 'Concessions' includes the following:
Escaping a duel-to-the-death would obviously incur some serious social penalties - such as becoming an exile that would be slain on sight.  But a 'concession' that involves putting your opponents in massively-increased danger?  The superghoul intervention would have killed off the entities that escaping the duel would incur penalties with.  Sure, it would probably mean a major debt with Cowl, but it in no way constitutes a 'win' for Team Dresden, even if those players accepted it on the terms of some of their enemies being guaranteed to die as a result.

I can't imagine the people I game with being willing to propose such a concession, much less accepting it.

It constitutes a Win in the sense that Harry and Ramirez won the duel, therefore Harry can later make his weregild terms with Lara, and in the eyes of the White Court in specific and the supernatural world in general, Harry and Ramirez were in the right. It also forces Vittorio's hand into taking the last few veils off the plot and showing the Black Council is behind it.

All of that is extremely important, regardless of the actions Vittorio takes next.

[Jreafman]

There is no discontinuity in temporality - the entire encounter is continuous, without pauses, breaks, or interruptions, and the entities involved have to stay on their toes the entire time.

If there were a single real example of a break, I'd let it suffice for a rest.  Say, something along the lines of that scene from The Phantom Menace where rotating force walls temporarily keep the combatants apart, and the bad guy paces while the good guy gets some meditation in.  That would count.  There was absolutely nothing like that.  Everyone is constantly in danger until they escape the killing field.

Actually, as I attempted to point out earlier, there's actually several pages in chapter 39 where it's basically White Court vs Ghouls during which Harry and Marcone talk, Thomas refuses to leave without Justine, Harry has to make the decision to try to get everyone out, convince Marcone that saving people is more important than saving his own hide.... and no one is taking shots at Harry. They're busy with other things... there's time enough for Harry to catch his breath, collect his thoughts, that sort of thing.

In this case, the White Court is your Force Walls.

[Melendwyr]

So where's the bit where Harry sits down and meditates?  There's a bit where he tries to beat a ghoul to death with his gun, bits where he's walking through the battle lines getting people out...

I shook my head and made sure my duster was still covering most of me.  "Malvora is still out there.  he might try to kill our gate, or try some other spell.  I've got to be one of the last ones through."
Murphy gave me a skeptical look.  "You look like you're about to fall over.  You in any shape to do more magic?"

Yeah, that seems to be very restful.

It seems pretty clear that nothing we say, or reference, or quote, is going to change your assertion that Harry Dresden got a rest period in the middle of the White Night battle.  I don't think there's anything else to be said.

[Cadd]

That battle is the textbook example of mid-battle break within the DF novels.

Whichever way you bend it, there is a narrative break in combat at that point.

[Mr. Death]

So where's the bit where Harry sits down and meditates?  There's a bit where he tries to beat a ghoul to death with his gun, bits where he's walking through the battle lines getting people out...

Yeah, that seems to be very restful.

It seems pretty clear that nothing we say, or reference, or quote, is going to change your assertion that Harry Dresden got a rest period in the middle of the White Night battle.  I don't think there's anything else to be said.

One thing needs to be said: That quote you picked happens well after the point where we're all saying the the break happened. Even though Jreafman clearly said where to find it (Chapter 39), you grabbed a quote from a whole chapter after that.

The part we're actually talking about:

Murphy stopped shooting and screamed something at me, but it
wasn't until Marcone stepped forward into the peripheral vision of
the armed gunmen and held up a hand with a closed fist that they
stopped firing.
For a second, nothing but a high, heavy tone buzzed in my ears,
making me deaf to the other sounds in the cavern. The air was full
of the sewer stench of wounded ghoul and the sharp scent of
burning cordite. A swath of stone floor ten yards across and thirty
deep had just been carpeted in pureed ghoul.
The fight was still going on all around us, but the main force of
ghouls was concentrating on the hard-pressed vampires. We'd
bought ourselves a temporary quiet spot, but it couldn't last.

Harry spends the entire rest of that chapter pointedly not fighting for his life. He has time for a quiet moment with Marcone where he convinces him to help him get the other Raiths out.