New GM Questions

[JGray]

Hello. I have gotten to run a couple of test scenarios for players in an attempt to learn the rules. I have been able to answer most of the questions that arose by going back and rereading the rules but a few are confusing me and I hope y'all can help.

1. How are the stress boxes gained from Toughness powers affected by the Catch? If a goblin has a physical stress track of OOO(OO) due to Inhuman Toughness and suffers 4 points of Physical Stress from an iron weapon do I mark off the 4th stress track box or is he Taken Out?

2. Can a block be used as an attack? For example, if X says she will cover Evil Dude with her pistol and shoot him of he seems to be attacking would that be a block that inflicts Physical Stress?

3. If a ferromancer (Mage who works with metal) uses evocation to wrap a chainlink fence around an enemy (and uses extra shifts to purchase pronounced duration) is this counted as a general block that prevents most actions or a grapple that let's the Mage still take other actions? Or is it a maneuver that adds an Aspect?

4. Evocation focus items need to be declared as offensive or defensive. What if they are used for maneuvers or blocks? If a block is cover fire would that be considered offensive or defensive? Is a maneuver to put an Increased Personal Gravity Aspect on a target considered offensive or defensive?

Thank you very much for humoring a GM who is new to this system.

[Mr. Death]

1. How are the stress boxes gained from Toughness powers affected by the Catch? If a goblin has a physical stress track of OOO(OO) due to Inhuman Toughness and suffers 4 points of Physical Stress from an iron weapon do I mark off the 4th stress track box or is he Taken Out?

He's Taken Out. The Catch makes it as if the toughness power does not exist.

2. Can a block be used as an attack? For example, if X says she will cover Evil Dude with her pistol and shoot him of he seems to be attacking would that be a block that inflicts Physical Stress?

No, you can't do stress with a block. A better option for this might be to hold action, then interrupt if Evil Dude goes to attack.

3. If a ferromancer (Mage who works with metal) uses evocation to wrap a chainlink fence around an enemy (and uses extra shifts to purchase pronounced duration) is this counted as a general block that prevents most actions or a grapple that let's the Mage still take other actions? Or is it a maneuver that adds an Aspect?

It could be any of them, depending on what the player's goal with the action is. Simply preventing him from taking action for a while? A block. Want to keep him from taking action while also doing some damage and/or maneuvering? Grapple. Want to give a temporary advantage (like, say, binding him long enough for someone else to deck him)? Maneuver.

I would rule that as a grapple, the Mage has to focus on the action and couldn't take others.

4. Evocation focus items need to be declared as offensive or defensive. What if they are used for maneuvers or blocks? If a block is cover fire would that be considered offensive or defensive? Is a maneuver to put an Increased Personal Gravity Aspect on a target considered offensive or defensive?

My general rule of thumb is if it's affecting an enemy directly, it's offensive. If it's affecting an ally directly, it's defensive.

Thank you very much for humoring a GM who is new to this system.

Hey, we've all been there, don't sweat it.

[gojj]

I would rule that as a grapple, the Mage has to focus on the action and couldn't take others.

I don't think you can grapple with magic.

My general rule of thumb is if it's affecting an enemy directly, it's offensive. If it's affecting an ally directly, it's defensive.

What about neutral actions? Like raising a zone border or covering the entire area in fog.

[Mr. Death]

I don't think you can grapple with magic.

Orbius.

*raises a shield against Sanctaphrax's rage*

What about neutral actions? Like raising a zone border or covering the entire area in fog.

I'd rule them defensive.

[narphoenix]

Orbius.

*raises a shield against Sanctaphrax's rage*

*sneaks around Death for a backstab*

Pay no attention to this "Orbius". It does not exist. I repeat, it DOES NOT EXIST.

[Haru]

1. How are the stress boxes gained from Toughness powers affected by the Catch? If a goblin has a physical stress track of OOO(OO) due to Inhuman Toughness and suffers 4 points of Physical Stress from an iron weapon do I mark off the 4th stress track box or is he Taken Out?

If a catch is satisfied, the character that's been hit is treated as not having any toughness or recovery powers at all. So if your goblin is hit with a cold iron weapon, his stress track is actually OOO. That's why the usual notation has the additional boxes in brackets. He would indeed be taken out (or had to take consequences).

2. Can a block be used as an attack? For example, if X says she will cover Evil Dude with her pistol and shoot him of he seems to be attacking would that be a block that inflicts Physical Stress?

No. There are rules to allow to reuse magical blocks, but I wouldn't recommend it for regular blocks. The idea is that you do something that discourages someone else from doing something. Maybe you give off a shot when he moves, or the gun simply discourages him to do anything if he can't break the block. If he can break the block, maybe you were distracted for a second, or you don't hit him when he is doing something.

If it is a "gun to his head" situation, I wouldn't really roll for it, that's a pretty clear situation, you shoot, he dies. That's less a block, more a plot device, and I would view the "gun to his head" situation as a taken out result.

3. If a ferromancer (Mage who works with metal) uses evocation to wrap a chainlink fence around an enemy (and uses extra shifts to purchase pronounced duration) is this counted as a general block that prevents most actions or a grapple that let's the Mage still take other actions? Or is it a maneuver that adds an Aspect?

Well, it really depends on what the player wants. If his main goal is to pretend the other guy from doing anything, it's a block against anything (and can be broken by anything). If he wants to prevent movement, it's a block against movement only. If he wants it to help him in his action, it's a maneuver.

Magical Grapples aren't really a thing. I think we tried to tackle it a few times on this board, but I'm not sure we ever reached a satisfying solution. Which makes sense, if you think about it. Evocation spells are supposed to be quick and dirty magic, grappling someone takes quite a while. That's where the "Orbius" stuff above results from. Some of these discussions were... intense.

4. Evocation focus items need to be declared as offensive or defensive. What if they are used for maneuvers or blocks? If a block is cover fire would that be considered offensive or defensive? Is a maneuver to put an Increased Personal Gravity Aspect on a target considered offensive or defensive?

As a general rule of thumb:
Blocks: If I want to prevent someone from doing something, it's offensive. If I want to prevent something to happen to me, it's defensive.
Maneuvers: If the spell effect is supposed to interact with me, an ally and/or the environment, it's defensive. If the spell effect is supposed to interact with someone else and/or the environment, it's offensive.

[JGray]

A nice group of answers and something I can chew on as I sort through the system. Thank you.

Which brings me to my next question. I'm trying to decide what effect a threshold would have on each of my player's characters.  The focused practitioner will obviously leave some of her power at the door but what about:

1. The zombie monk fused to a spirit of Justice?
2. The lawyer given a magic pistol that marks her as an agent of the Furies?
3. The reporter with the pendant from the cat sith that turns her into a house kitty?
4. And the descendant of the goddess Epona?

Any thoughts there?

[Haru]

Well, 2 and 3 will definitely be able to enter, as they are human. The pistol seems like it should work, it's merely a tool, a weapon, it's not a willful act of magic. The pendant would be more complicated to judge, but I think this would be easiest to handle as a compel. If it is interesting for the threshold to interact with the pendant, it's a compel, otherwise, don't bother to think about it. It could, for example, mean that the reporter gets stuck in the form she is in, when she is hindered by a threshold. Or she gets turned back into a (naked) human.

The zombie seems to be held together by magic, or at least I would interpret it that way. That would mean that crossing a threshold poses a very real risk of death for him, not just diminished power. I would probably handle this as a compel again, either to not have him enter, or to not have him be able to do anything but focus on not falling apart.

The descendant of a god might be able to break a threshold, but I think she'd be held to the laws of hospitality harder than other characters. Again, easiest to handle with a compel. Maybe she is forced to remain passive, or if she acts, she will have to pay substantial reparations to the host, even if she was using her powers for the host.

[Taran]

Which brings me to my next question. I'm trying to decide what effect a threshold would have on each of my player's characters.  The focused practitioner will obviously leave some of her power at the door but what about:

1. The zombie monk fused to a spirit of Justice?
2. The lawyer given a magic pistol that marks her as an agent of the Furies?
3. The reporter with the pendant from the cat sith that turns her into a house kitty?
4. And the descendant of the goddess Epona?

Any thoughts there?

1.  I think a threshold is gonna be nasty on this one.

Treat the Zombie the same way you'd treat a Black Court Vampire, I think.  The spirit is unable to cross the threshold at all but since it has a 'vessel' (the corpse) it can try to push its way through.

I'd do this as a discipline vs the level of the threshold.  If he succeeds, he can enter.  If he fails, he can't (though, he could keep trying).  I'd then have him take powers away, as normal.  If all his powers are removed, he falls apart and the spirit is ejected from the body (and the house).    If he has at least one refresh left, he's strong enough to survive the threshold.

Then you have to decide if the threshold does environmental damage to him every round.  It's a spirit of justice, so maybe not.  Though, if his Catch is Holy, I'd say the threshold would damage him.

2.  The pistol would probably lose powers.  Including Marked by Power, albeit, that might be the last power.  Basically, it cuts off the connection to the Sponsor.  But the Furies may be subject to the same rules as the Fae.  See #3.

3.  I think it's been established that, if they mean no harm, Fairies are unaffected by thresholds.  If she breaks any of the rules of Hospitality, I think the amulet would cease to function(lose powers based on the threshold).  If she's a cat, she'd get changed back.

4.  Probably just like a Fae.  (see Haru's suggestion for compels)

[Sanctaphrax]

Orbius.

*raises a shield against Sanctaphrax's rage*

Actually, if Orbius worked the way you think it ought to it would be far less offensive.

PS: Thanks narphoenix.

[JGray]

Thanks for the feedback so far! It is really helping me sort things. I think I've sorted out how Thresholds affect each of my group's supernatural characters.

• The zombie monk bonded to a justice spirit will need to make a Discipline vs Threshold roll just to enter uninvited and then will lost power much like a wizard. Lose too much power and damage will begin due to losing her Living Dead power.
• The reporter who turns into a cat via a magic item won't be affected at all as a human. As a cat, she will be subject to the laws of hospitality. Since the power source is the Cat Sith, the technicality is based on faerie black and white "letter and not spirit of the law" logic. She's only supernatural in the cat form.
• The focused practitioner loses her powers as the rules already describe.
• The agent of the Furies with the magic revolver will have a compel she'll need to overcome to use the weapon's powers.

I've come up with a few more questions to ask. Thank you for your patience in answering them.

• This never seems to be specified in the books. What's the consensus - is an invite past a threshold permanent? Once invited, always invited? Or does it only last until the invitee leaves?
• In the books you occasionally see non-sponsored magic in the hands of laypeople who likely don't have spellcasting powers. Thomas uses multiple tracking spells, for example, in one short story. I also believe Harry teaches a couple of people how to make a magic warding circle. What's the consensus on how that is being done?
• The rules do not suggest it can be done, but has anyone experimented with allowing someone with evocation/channeling to use magic in defense rolls? Rereading the books, it doesn't seem like Harry is using his "action" to activate his shield bracelets. Or is that a function of the focus item itself?
• In the vein of house rules, what's the thought on allowing focused practitioners to buy refinement in order to add bonuses to their specialties?

Thanks again for your thoughts and answers.

[Haru]

This never seems to be specified in the books. What's the consensus - is an invite past a threshold permanent? Once invited, always invited? Or does it only last until the invitee leaves?

I think it's for one stay only, though it's rather vague. The laws of hospitality work both ways though, so I would argue that once someone officially leaves in the spirit of hospitality, the invitation is void. By spirit of hospitality, I mean that the visit is over, they didn't just leave the house. So just stepping out once wouldn't end the invitation, but saying goodbye and leaving would.

In the books you occasionally see non-sponsored magic in the hands of laypeople who likely don't have spellcasting powers. Thomas uses multiple tracking spells, for example, in one short story. I also believe Harry teaches a couple of people how to make a magic warding circle. What's the consensus on how that is being done?

I could see this as being a 1 trick pony sort of thing. You could reduce ritual to a 1 refresh power, only allowing you to do 1 specific spell. It would be a character with very weak magical talent. I don't really know about Thomas though, haven't read that for a while. Didn't he work with Bob there? That could definitely be sponsored magic to a degree. Or maybe Thomas simply has some weak magical talent, due to his mother.

A lot of times, something like this might just be handled with a Fate point. Thomas could say "Because my Mother was a wizard, and I've seen my brother do this a lot of times, I should be able to get a half decent tracking spell running", pay a Fate point and be done. Or in the case of the coven, it might even just be something that happens in the background, without any actual power attached to it.

The rules do not suggest it can be done, but has anyone experimented with allowing someone with evocation/channeling to use magic in defense rolls? Rereading the books, it doesn't seem like Harry is using his "action" to activate his shield bracelets. Or is that a function of the focus item itself?

"I readied my shield bracelet" can easily be translated as "I create a block using magic" in game terms. Mechanically, the shield would come into existence right there, but in the story, it only appears one it is used to deflect an attack.

I will allow some enchanted items to be used reactively as well, blocks are among them. Though I usually use the rule that if you use the block item actively, it lasts for the whole duration it was intended to. On the other hand, if it is used reactively, that use will only count against this one attack, and it will not last for anything more than that. I think that's a good compromise.

In the vein of house rules, what's the thought on allowing focused practitioners to buy refinement in order to add bonuses to their specialties?

Well, specializations don't help them too much. Once they've got their +1/+2 filled, they can't get any higher, because the rules force them to keep at least a column build, much like skills.

I've proposed to go for specialized evocation, when it comes to channeling. The idea is to split the channeling element (or theme) into 3-5 subcategories and have them be your evocation elements. You can then buy specializations for those.

I think there's been the proposition of "blank specializations" somewhere, as well. That would mean that you can put points into blank specializations, which would then support your columns. You could have:

+3 fire control
+2 blank, fire power
+1 blank, blank

This would cost you 9 points of refinement, 4 of which would go into blank specializations.

I'm not sure how just removing the need for supporting columns would work out. The same column above could give you

+5 fire control
+4 fire power
+3
+2
+1

Since you'd have to allow this for wizards as well, I think, this could get lopsided pretty quickly.

[Jreafman]

I think it's for one stay only, though it's rather vague. The laws of hospitality work both ways though, so I would argue that once someone officially leaves in the spirit of hospitality, the invitation is void. By spirit of hospitality, I mean that the visit is over, they didn't just leave the house. So just stepping out once wouldn't end the invitation, but saying goodbye and leaving would.

I think Haru nailed it. If you invite Harry over for a BBQ in the backyard, and you invited him in the house, then went out back to grill, and he decided to head back into the house and grab a couple more beers, you wouldn't have to reinvite him each time you guys finished a beer. That would get tedious (unless you guys just drink really slow) On the other hand, once the BBQ is over and he leaves, he can't just walk back in anytime he wants.

I'm trying really hard to remember if in White Night he got invited in to the same Ordo Lebes member's residence multiple times. Like... if they specified him looking for an invitation more than once. I really wanna say the answer is yes.

I'm also thinking about the number of times that Harry has been inside the Raith Household. I'd have to go through and reread the books to be certain, but I feel very strongly that in Turn Coat he made certain to receive an invitation even though he'd been previously invited. Which would mean that we have a definitive answer on that one.

[bobjob]

I'm trying really hard to remember if in White Night he got invited in to the same Ordo Lebes member's residence multiple times. Like... if they specified him looking for an invitation more than once. I really wanna say the answer is yes.

I'm also thinking about the number of times that Harry has been inside the Raith Household. I'd have to go through and reread the books to be certain, but I feel very strongly that in Turn Coat he made certain to receive an invitation even though he'd been previously invited. Which would mean that we have a definitive answer on that one.

I want to say I remember that the first time he had to swear an oath on his power to enter the Ordo Lebes apartment. The second time he busted in, leaving part of his power at the door hoping to catch the perp in the act. Dunno about the Raith household. I think he's only actually been in the house twice. Once in Blood Rites in which he was invited in and once again in Turn Coat where Harry and Captain Luccio entered in their capacity as Wardens (which would probably be an invite before Shagnasty showed up). The events of Blood Rites and White Night in the Deeps probably doesn't count because it's a cave on the property and not the house proper (besides, the second time he was met just past the gate by Lara who knew what he was going to do. She'd want him at full power since Harry was essentially acting as her catspaw vs the other White Court Houses).

I wouldn't imagine one of the many homes the Raith's have would have much of a threshold. Sure, some of them live there, but they seem transient enough until Lara takes it up as her base of power.

[narphoenix]

2. The lawyer given a magic pistol that marks her as an agent of the Furies?

Here's a cookie. If you want, you can make the Pistol give the Kindly Magic Sponsored Magic, which has ignoring thresholds as a part of its benefit (the Eumenides Do Not Stop for anything):

(click to show/hide)

KINDLY MAGIC [-4]
Description: Drawing on the power of the Eumenides, the Kindly Ones, you have become an avatar of vengeance and champion of those wronged, especially by those victimized by family blood. You draw on magic of pure and powerful wrath in the pursuit of righting wrongs.
Sponsor: The Erin-Eumenides, the Kindly Ones
Agenda: Avenging the innocent, especially spilled family blood. Sponsor debt should push you toward vengeance at any cost.
Evocation: Kindly Magic draws on deep forms of measured wrath, calling up precise and vicious beams of fire, powerful and narrow blades of force, focused and terrifying bolts of lightning, and things of that nature.
Thaumaturgy: Kindly Rituals involve finding targets and taking vengeance on them, or protecting the innocent to destroy the guilty. Divination to find targets or innocents are top of the list, followed by Transformation and Disruption rituals to take vengeance from afar.
Evothaum: Divination to find targets may be cast with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: Any spell performed with Kindly Magic cannot be counterspelled. It also works over Thresholds, running water, and, if a caster is mortal, even over enchanted circles.

Also, Sancta made me get the warm fuzzes. XP