Order of the blackened Denarius Question.

[Rossbert]

I figured out the part that bugged me.  There is no reason in game or in the books why you would suffer immediate social penalties from having a shadow.

[Haru]

"It's my job to bring misery to your characters".

He's right about that. Though he seems to confuse that with "bring misery to the player".

[narphoenix]

Yeah. You're /supposed/ to torture the character. It's fun. But you don't do it by saying "here's how you're going to RP your character because I'm going to make you", you do stuff like, "Well, you're a warlock with Council level talent, so you can Soulgaze. Have a FP to look into the eyes of this random old man. Oh wait? He's the Blackstaff of the White Council? Whoooooops."

Then of course you give them a way to hightail it out of there very very quickly.

[blackstaff67]

I would also like to point out that my character wears leather gauntlets at all times as they are my Evocation Foci. However when i cited the same thing about skin contact and even referenced Thomas and his coin and how his gloves protected him he answered as follows "Thomas is a Supernatural Creature and Can't have a coin". Which may be true but he went to presume that gloves offer no protection against the coin or the Angel imprint unless they were on par with the sanctified cloth the Knights of the cross use to transport the coins.

One more bullet for this dead horse and then I'm done. Three words: Crown Royal Bag.

[Jabberwocky]

Well, I would say you CAN torture even the player along with their character (uncertainty is one of the ways, even forcing something on the player/character duo might work sometimes) but it's necessary to know the player very well and work with the overall gaming atmosphere carefully. Otherwise, it's too easy to cross the fine line between "tension almost unbearable" and "our GM is a jerk".

In this case we lack the input from the other party but generally, either he is a bad GM or his style just doesn't comply with your style, Grasharm (it seems like the first option to me but I wasn't there so I don't want to judge). In either case, no fun => quit. Your life is too valuable to be wasted on unfunny leisure activities :-)

[Hick Jr]

This sounds like a bad case of the D&D classic: "bad GM throws the unwinnable moral dilemma at the Lawful Good paladin and forces him to fall".

[cdm014]

First let me say:

1. It was Nicodemus (and you presumably knew that), when he throws something small to/at you, a coin is a reasonable assumption. You had options to deflect or dodge, perhaps much like Harry, your subconscious made a decision for you...

Now to the other hand:

2. Harry considers a glove and a crown royal bag sufficient. There's no indication that the cloth need be blessed.

3. A shadow could have done very little to you. Indeed without first knowingly using some of its power, it couldn't even appear to you as itself; it would have to deceive you.

So there are cases where your GM is not staying true to canon.

Your bit about how your character can only be described as a LG Paladin however, might indicate this isn't the best fit for you either. Canonically, there are about 3 people who would never [insert specific violation of moral code here], and they all carry the swords. Most of the books are about the fact that the characters keep having to things which are clearly gray areas. Theoretically, your story could be about how you never ever ever ever fall to temptation, on the other hand that likely means the situations you are in aren't tempting enough.

If you're not in a situation where the power of a fallen angel might make the difference between success and dying, how terrible could the bad guys really be.

[Grasharm]

First let me say:

1. It was Nicodemus (and you presumably knew that)

False, at the time of the incident i had read none of the books and it was my first time playing DFRPG.

[Grasharm]

Let me just say this in closing. Again thanks to all who participated in this discussion, your input was very much appreciated. What my main concern was I was given an item that gave me a constant penalty to all my Role playing interactions and the only way to get rid of it was to give up my magic forever, which if i wanted to do that why would I have rolled a wizard.

[shadowlost]

I guess what I am trying to ask is would the Denarion have to break the human before they will get the shadow? Or would simply placing a coin in their hand while they are restrained be enough to...infect them?

Remember in Death Masks Nic had Harry bound and under water and he still needed him to choose to take the coin. You just can't force someone to take the coin and hope for a viable result. Just remember in he Christian theology the idea of Free Will is more prominent than the ideas of salvation. If someone has the coin it should be because they chose to take it up knowing full well the results and not just some poor schmuck who found a coin out in the park.

[Quantus]

Remember in Death Masks Nic had Harry bound and under water and he still needed him to choose to take the coin. You just can't force someone to take the coin and hope for a viable result. Just remember in he Christian theology the idea of Free Will is more prominent than the ideas of salvation. If someone has the coin it should be because they chose to take it up knowing full well the results and not just some poor schmuck who found a coin out in the park.

Not sure that is strictly the case.  I think the person needs to Choose to pick up the coin, yes, but I dont think they need to actually understand the full implications of it (any more than when making a Deal with a Sidhe, where you NEVER know the full implications).  Basically you have to give Consent, but not necessarily Informed Consent.  In the Alley in DM harry was in danger when he tried to pick up the coin, having absolutely no idea what it was. 

On the flip side, I dont think you can just sneak into somebodies bedroom and drop it on their face while they sleep, either, because there is no Choice.  But a Choice made in Ignorance is still a Choice. 

[PirateJack]

Remember in Death Masks Nic had Harry bound and under water and he still needed him to choose to take the coin. You just can't force someone to take the coin and hope for a viable result. Just remember in he Christian theology the idea of Free Will is more prominent than the ideas of salvation. If someone has the coin it should be because they chose to take it up knowing full well the results and not just some poor schmuck who found a coin out in the park.

Well, the deck can be stacked against them there as well. The Shadow's job is to tempt the host into using more and more of its power until they're willing to take up the Coin, making them more likely to fall to temptation. That's not how all of the Denarians work, however. Ursiel drives his hosts insane and subdues their free will instead of working with it like Nicodemus and Lasciel do, likely not even telling Rasmussen about what the Coin meant before having him take it up.

[PirateJack]

Not sure that is strictly the case.  I think the person needs to Choose to pick up the coin, yes, but I dont think they need to actually understand the full implications of it (any more than when making a Deal with a Sidhe, where you NEVER know the full implications).  Basically you have to give Consent, but not necessarily Informed Consent.  In the Alley in DM harry was in danger when he tried to pick up the coin, having absolutely no idea what it was. 

On the flip side, I dont think you can just sneak into somebodies bedroom and drop it on their face while they sleep, either, because there is no Choice.  But a Choice made in Ignorance is still a Choice.

Ninja'd. Agreed though.

[shadowlost]

Not sure that is strictly the case.  I think the person needs to Choose to pick up the coin, yes, but I dont think they need to actually understand the full implications of it (any more than when making a Deal with a Sidhe, where you NEVER know the full implications).  Basically you have to give Consent, but not necessarily Informed Consent.  In the Alley in DM harry was in danger when he tried to pick up the coin, having absolutely no idea what it was. 

On the flip side, I dont think you can just sneak into somebodies bedroom and drop it on their face while they sleep, either, because there is no Choice.  But a Choice made in Ignorance is still a Choice.

That is my point. A person simply not knowing at all wouldn't truly work but if they have a sense of an idea it's the beginning the Fallen need. If you take this coin you'll have the knowledge necessary to cure your dying wife vs Hey look what I found in the park. Someone who does will face the same issues but the struggle the Fallen face with an unknown/unwilling target would be a waste of resources. That might work for Nic's wife who is more of a short term kinda thug. Nic and those like him would choose those who have some idea and still make that choice as honestly as possible.

[Taran]

O.k...but Little Harry doesn't have a clue what the coin does.  He was just a baby.  It seemed pretty important that the baby not touch the coin.

I'm not disagreeing with the Free-will thing.  I suppose, the baby is picking up the coin is 'willingly' and 'ignorantly'.

Corrupting innocence seems like something Denarian's like to do. 

Edit:  Picking up the coin, in this situation feels a lot like Gollum picking up the ring in Lord of the Rings and becoming perverted by it.