Author Topic: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)  (Read 10568 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2014, 01:27:19 AM »
A lot of DFRPG is houserules. The RAW itself suggests to come up with stunts and powers etc. yourself, and I wouldn't really call that houserules.

I would. Not that it matters much.

What I'm trying to say is that Breath Weapon isn't good for wizards. A hypothetical altered form of it might be, though.

Haha. I think my example appled some effect after all. :-P

Heh.

And that's kind of my point. If your epic fights are lasting four exchanges, you're probably throwing the wrong kind of encounters at people.

Nope!

They work and they work well. The longer encounters, the ones which don't involve evokers, also work well but often drag a bit near the end.

Worth mentioning that I play more PbP than in person, and everything takes longer in PbP.

The mechanics are subject to the narrative, not independent and not equal. That's what I'm saying.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean, exactly.

But most of them are. +2 to Lore when navigating the Nevernever IS a narrative balance.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean either.

Where is the narrative basis for debt for "self-sponsored" magic? That's the most critical part of the question and the thing that no one seems to have answered.

The only reasoning I've seen for it is something to the effect of "drawing on inner reserves" but if that's the case that should just be a houserule that all players can do, although that's really what Fate Points are for in the first place. Fate Points are a resource management system. If there's no downside or restriction on taking on debt then you've basically wrecked the core mechanic of FATE.

The basis varies depends on the magic. Mab's Unseelie Magic might be drawing on her realm or her mother or her own mantle or just nebulous greatness. The Merlin's ward magic might be getting it as a free extra for extreme expertise or burning a bit of his human soul or incurring some karmic debt.

Debt doesn't have to mean anything in-character because FP don't exist in-character. So the justification can be more or less anything.

As for the downside, well, you're going to get a compel with no payoff sometime. How is that different from agenda-related debt? Being forced to do Uriel's bidding isn't worse than any other Compel.

...its impossible to have a disagreement without sounding like you're saying the other person is doing it wrong. Because that's exactly what you're saying.

Yeah.

Most of this debate isn't about opinions, by the way. It's about beliefs. The difference is that beliefs can be wrong.

Offline umdshaman

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Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2014, 03:37:05 AM »
The basis varies depends on the magic. Mab's Unseelie Magic might be drawing on her realm or her mother or her own mantle or just nebulous greatness. The Merlin's ward magic might be getting it as a free extra for extreme expertise or burning a bit of his human soul or incurring some karmic debt.
Debt doesn't have to mean anything in-character because FP don't exist in-character. So the justification can be more or less anything.
Except that debt DOES mean something in character with Sponsored Magic (as I've pointed out before, just like Fate Points do mean something in character) and "self-sponsored" magic just borrowed the template seemingly without considering the narrative consequences. But I've pretty much gone over all of this before and really what it comes down to is that you think that agenda-related and other debt are the same thing, while I profusely disagree for reasons I've already stated.

And you can potentially justify the debt, sure, but Sponsored Magic has a single reason for all sponsored debt.
Since you mentioned the subject of Mab, she doesn't HAVE Unseelie Magic. She has "plot device-level magic" (per Our World). Whether it comes from Mab, the Mantle, Mother Winter or the abstract concept of Winter itself Unseelie Magic is something that only characters borrowing that power can have because its Sponsored Magic.
One of my problems then, is that "self-sponsored" magic borrowed this concept but didn't have a reason for it across the board other than that it was part of the Sponsored Magic template.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean, exactly.
Not really sure what got lost in translation. The FATE system is built on a narrative structure. When you read a book (Hero's Journey aside) typically the character is good at certain things (Skills) and most of the time she's going to succeed at what she's good at and fail at what she's not. Of course, its a game so we don't want the results to always be predetermined so we use the FUDGE dice, which only average 0. Typically when the hero DOES succeed or fail where she shouldn't its because of something in her background (Aspects). The hero usually gets beat up at the beginning (Compels) and fantastically outdoes all previous conceptions at the end (Invokes).
So... when you make a mechanic in FATE, you make it support the narrative. If it doesn't support the narrative (it doesn't fit or it doesn't have a compelling reason to exist) then its a bad mechanic (aside: This is why I don't think Soulfire is actually Sponsored Magic no matter what the RAW says).

For the sake of saving some argument, let me give a try at making what you want in a way that I would consider to be at least less problematic.

Excessive Specialization [-1]
For some reason, you've abandoned the traditional path of magical study. Maybe you never had a mentor. Maybe you're on the run from the White Council. Or maybe you're Mommy just always told you you were a unique little snowflake and you're going to be and to heck with the consequences.
Musts: You must have an Aspect which alludes to this ability (typically your High Concept)
Each time you take this, you must choose a field of magical study (eg: Ectomancy, Demonology). If you have taken both Ritual and Channeling in the same field you get a one-time refund of 1 refresh when you take this power. You may take this ability multiple times. It may not be applied to a category of magic (Warding, Summoning and Binding, Crafting).
* Just That Good. You gain +1 to Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency when dealing with magic in this field. This ability may only be taken once per field, not once per bonus type. This bonus stacks with itself and specializations. Control applies to both Thaumaturgy and Evocation magics.
* Combat Casting. You may cast relevant Thaumaturgic rituals at combat speed provided you draw all the necessary power in one exchange. You may take this ability once per field.
* True Ritual. You may use one of your rote slots for a relevant Thaumaturgic ritual. The Thaumaturgic rote automatically succeeds after a number of exchanges (min. 1) equal to the complexity of the spell minus your Control. All parameters (except target, unless the target is yourself) and including any bonuses from foci and the source of any extra shifts for complexity must be set when this power is taken. This ability may be taken once, plus one for any slots Rote Caster gives you. This ability may be combined with Combat Casting provided the rote takes one exchange.
* Rote Caster. You have gain a number of rote spell slots equal to your Lore that must be used for Rotes in the field of study.
* Easy Peasy. You may cast a single relevant rote for one less stress (min. 0) than it would normally take. You may take this ability once per rote.
* Of Course I Know That. You automatically succeed at any knowledge roll relevant to casting of spells in this field (eg: internal anatomy for Biomancy) provided the difficulty is less than your Lore.

I realize those abilities are kind of all over the map (and the refresh cost may be off because of it), but this basically reflects most of the things you'd want a specialist to be able to do generically without taking on any extra baggage.

EDIT: Added a couple clarifications including that bonus is +1 to Control for Thaumaturgy and Evocation OR a +1 to Complexity and Power.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 03:57:19 AM by umdshaman »

Offline narphoenix

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Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2014, 03:40:44 AM »
You just made a better Refinement. A better /dual/ refinement. At half the cost. I'm going to be kind and say that's quite unbalanced.
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Offline umdshaman

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Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2014, 03:49:54 AM »
You just made a better Refinement. A better /dual/ refinement. At half the cost. I'm going to be kind and say that's quite unbalanced.
Not better. Different. I assume you're referring to Just That Good, so quick explanation of why that IS balanced.
Refinement provides either two specializations or two Focus slots per refresh. There is no restriction on where these are put. I've basically split that bonus across Evocation and Thaumaturgy (its actually weaker than Refinement if you don't have both, but that's on you). Both focus items and specializations have downsides of course, and here the downside is you can ONLY split it, you can only choose one bonus type, and you can only do it once. Ever.

Pretty much none of the other abilities are things Refinement even comes close to allowing you to do.

EDIT: Ah. I see your misunderstanding. I was trying to be clear with that but it's Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency, not Control, Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 03:59:11 AM by umdshaman »

Offline narphoenix

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Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2014, 04:04:55 AM »
Not better. Different. I assume you're referring to Just That Good, so quick explanation of why that IS balanced.
Refinement provides either two specializations or two Focus slots per refresh. There is no restriction on where these are put. I've basically split that bonus across Evocation and Thaumaturgy (its actually weaker than Refinement if you don't have both, but that's on you). Both focus items and specializations have downsides of course, and here the downside is you can ONLY split it, you can only choose one bonus type, and you can only do it once. Ever.

Pretty much none of the other abilities are things Refinement even comes close to allowing you to do.

EDIT: Ah. I see your misunderstanding. I was trying to be clear with that but it's Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency, not Control, Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency.

Ok. That's better.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2014, 09:58:02 PM »
Except that debt DOES mean something in character with Sponsored Magic...

It can, yeah. Doesn't necessarily have to though.

One of my problems then, is that "self-sponsored" magic borrowed this concept but didn't have a reason for it across the board other than that it was part of the Sponsored Magic template.

I can see why that would bug you. Fortunately it's easy to change; Self-Sponsored Magic works fine without the debt.

Not really sure what got lost in translation.

The consequences, so to speak. What concrete implications does that statement have for Power design?

Yes, every Power should serve a narrative purpose. But so far as I can tell, it's hard to design a Power that doesn't.

Excessive Specialization [-1]
For some reason, you've abandoned the traditional path of magical study. Maybe you never had a mentor. Maybe you're on the run from the White Council. Or maybe you're Mommy just always told you you were a unique little snowflake and you're going to be and to heck with the consequences.
Musts: You must have an Aspect which alludes to this ability (typically your High Concept)
Each time you take this, you must choose a field of magical study (eg: Ectomancy, Demonology). If you have taken both Ritual and Channeling in the same field you get a one-time refund of 1 refresh when you take this power. You may take this ability multiple times. It may not be applied to a category of magic (Warding, Summoning and Binding, Crafting).
* Just That Good. You gain +1 to Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency when dealing with magic in this field. This ability may only be taken once per field, not once per bonus type. This bonus stacks with itself and specializations. Control applies to both Thaumaturgy and Evocation magics.
* Combat Casting. You may cast relevant Thaumaturgic rituals at combat speed provided you draw all the necessary power in one exchange. You may take this ability once per field.
* True Ritual. You may use one of your rote slots for a relevant Thaumaturgic ritual. The Thaumaturgic rote automatically succeeds after a number of exchanges (min. 1) equal to the complexity of the spell minus your Control. All parameters (except target, unless the target is yourself) and including any bonuses from foci and the source of any extra shifts for complexity must be set when this power is taken. This ability may be taken once, plus one for any slots Rote Caster gives you. This ability may be combined with Combat Casting provided the rote takes one exchange.
* Rote Caster. You have gain a number of rote spell slots equal to your Lore that must be used for Rotes in the field of study.
* Easy Peasy. You may cast a single relevant rote for one less stress (min. 0) than it would normally take. You may take this ability once per rote.
* Of Course I Know That. You automatically succeed at any knowledge roll relevant to casting of spells in this field (eg: internal anatomy for Biomancy) provided the difficulty is less than your Lore.

I realize those abilities are kind of all over the map (and the refresh cost may be off because of it), but this basically reflects most of the things you'd want a specialist to be able to do generically without taking on any extra baggage.

There are some serious issues with this but I think there's a good idea in there. Do you want a critique, or is this just for the sake of argument?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 04:05:58 AM by Sanctaphrax »

Offline umdshaman

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Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2014, 03:53:55 AM »
There are some serious issues with this but I think there's a good idea in there. Do you want a critique, or is this just for the sake of argument?

Mostly for the sake of argument. Obviously its "rough draft" but it seems like it gives you most of what you want (I probably wouldn't allow the free upgrade, personally, but that seemed important to you) but remove most of the things that bug me. Feel free to redesign and repost it if you think it might work better (or at least be an equal alternative), but I probably won't have use for it for a while.