Feeding Dependency

[Cadd]

A few qick questions on Feeding Dependency:
1: The custom version - it gets rid of the Hunger stress track in order to clarify when you're supposed to lose access to powers, right?
2: When calculating the "combined refresh of powers usued" after a scene - is the rebate from Catch/Limitation included? The example uses the full value of Toughness, but doesn't say explicitly.
Say a Ghoul uses both Recovery, Speed and Strength - is that 8 (full value) or 6 (Recoverys +2 catch included)?

[Sanctaphrax]

1. Yes.

2. Dunno.

[Cadd]

After sleeping on it, here's an idea:

• If the catch in question has been in effect the entire scene, the power hasn't actually been used so it shouldn't add to the hunger "attack"
• If the catch has been in use but not for every attack, apply the rebate before calculating hunger stress
• If the catch hasn't come up at all in the scene, apply the full cost of the powers used, no rebate.

Does that sound fair?
Any GMs that's had Feeding Dependency in their game - how have you handled it? Either version, on PCs or NPCs, doesn't matter.

[Taran]

I would use one or the other.

If you include the catch then if you ever have choose to lose powers, you're going to lose more wholesale because your abilities are only worth one refresh, for example.  If you don't include the catch, you cancel more selective on what you lose.  The downside is you are defend against more powers so are more likely to fail a hunger roll

[Cadd]

@Sanctaphrax:
How does the wiki version of Feeding Dependency interact with Tattoos of S:t Giles?
The Biofeedback, Supernatural Player and Fellowship Training trappings are of course unaffected, and I assume Deeper Reserves is translated from two stressboxes to a mild hunger consequence, but how would/do you treat A Warning to Others? Does the bonus hang around as long as there are consequences taken/powers lost? Only when there are consequences?

Actually - thinking about it now (I do seem to get a lot of my ideas while writing here, I apologize for any poorly though out ones), maybe A Warning to Others should kick in earlier than by RAW. As it is, it kicks in when the hunger "attack" is actually done - end of scene. Maybe start showing the tattoos during the scene - either as soon as restricted powers are used, or when the total refresh used equals Discipline (it starts to be a higher risk of taking consequences) or something like that.

Some general stuff on the wiki version of Feeding Dependency itself:
A couple of beings with Feeding Dependency seem to be able to at least partially recover just with time (WCVs and RCIs primarily); how should this be represented? Should the Dependency be stipulated like "Lifeforce through emotions OR significant time without further use of associated powers" and thus have a modifier from the list?

I'm also not quite clear on how to calculate those extra hunger consequences, is this correct:

• -2 refresh selected: +1 rebate
• -4 refresh selected: +1 rebate & 1 mild consequence
• -6 refresh selected: +2 rebate
• -8 refresh selected: +2 rebate & 1 mild consequence

[vultur]

I think it might be better to throw out Feeding Dependency as a rebate-power entirely and instead make it a simple matter of sponsor debt/compels.

So instead of being able to take sponsor debt on spellcasting rolls you'd define a certain list of situations when it can be taken (WCVs might be able to take it on Athletics, Might, and Fists/Weapons rolls, for example).

Of course, without the rebate, you'd have to rebuild the template if you still wanted WCVs to be playable at Chest Deep ... I'd probably move Inhuman Strength out of "musts" to just "options", since Thomas is only marginally stronger than a normal guy of his size/build when he isn't actively drawing on his demon. (The healing stuff does take feeding, but it seems more "instinctive/automatic").

So the WCV template would include
(Musts)
Emotional Vampire [-1]
Incite Emotion [-1]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
    The Catch [+0]: True Love, Courage, and/or Hope depending on the emotion fed upon

(Options)
Incite Emotion (all upgrades)
Inhuman/Supernatural Strength [-2/-4]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
Supernatural Speed [-4]


for the RCIs, the Tattoos of St. Giles would have to become something else entirely, though...

[Sanctaphrax]

@Sanctaphrax:
How does the wiki version of Feeding Dependency interact with Tattoos of S:t Giles?

Dunno. I don't like the tattoos and I never really thought about how they would work.

Off-hand, I'd recommend being generous. IIRC the tattoos are kind of a weak way to spend 2 Refresh.

If that sounds half-assed, that's because it is. Wiki Feeding Dependency is a bit half-assed in general. I still prefer it to the canon Power, though.

Some general stuff on the wiki version of Feeding Dependency itself:
A couple of beings with Feeding Dependency seem to be able to at least partially recover just with time (WCVs and RCIs primarily); how should this be represented? Should the Dependency be stipulated like "Lifeforce through emotions OR significant time without further use of associated powers" and thus have a modifier from the list?

I guess so.

But honestly, I'd rather not let them recover without feeding.

I'm also not quite clear on how to calculate those extra hunger consequences, is this correct:

• -2 refresh selected: +1 rebate
• -4 refresh selected: +1 rebate & 1 mild consequence
• -6 refresh selected: +2 rebate
• -8 refresh selected: +2 rebate & 1 mild consequence

Yeah, that's correct.

I think it might be better to throw out Feeding Dependency as a rebate-power entirely and instead make it a simple matter of sponsor debt/compels.

So instead of being able to take sponsor debt on spellcasting rolls you'd define a certain list of situations when it can be taken (WCVs might be able to take it on Athletics, Might, and Fists/Weapons rolls, for example).

I like this idea.

I've also toyed with the thought of making it a Limitation, as in "Powers shut down unless you've fed since you last used them". Though that might be a bit harsh.

Of course, without the rebate, you'd have to rebuild the template if you still wanted WCVs to be playable at Chest Deep ... I'd probably move Inhuman Strength out of "musts" to just "options", since Thomas is only marginally stronger than a normal guy of his size/build when he isn't actively drawing on his demon. (The healing stuff does take feeding, but it seems more "instinctive/automatic").

You could also try taking a different position on the White Court Catch debate. That'd save 1 Refresh.

Might be possible to ditch Emotional Vampire. Describe stress from upgraded Incite Emotion as feeding stress, say that vamps without that upgrade can't feed in combat time.

[vultur]

I like this idea.

I've also toyed with the thought of making it a Limitation, as in "Powers shut down unless you've fed since you last used them". Though that might be a bit harsh.

I agree that's too harsh, especially since that would prevent Thomas doing a lot of the stuff he does in the books when he's not really feeding much. Maybe if you're generous enough with the 'hairdressing' style feeding... but...

You could also try taking a different position on the White Court Catch debate. That'd save 1 Refresh.

Yeah, I guess it could get +1 for knowledge.

Might be possible to ditch Emotional Vampire. Describe stress from upgraded Incite Emotion as feeding stress, say that vamps without that upgrade can't feed in combat time.

Maybe, but that would allow ranged feeding, and I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

I think either the dropping Strength as a must or the +1 for knowledge Catch thing is better.

[Cadd]

I think it might be better to throw out Feeding Dependency as a rebate-power entirely and instead make it a simple matter of sponsor debt/compels.

So instead of being able to take sponsor debt on spellcasting rolls you'd define a certain list of situations when it can be taken (WCVs might be able to take it on Athletics, Might, and Fists/Weapons rolls, for example).

I have been toying with the thought of some kind of sponsor debt-ish variant for WCV, since both Thomas and Lara seem to be able to draw on speed that is clearly past "Inhuman" regularly, but isn't using it continually. The fact that I haven't really needed anything like that in my games so far, and that I think it could get really wonky really fast to mix the mechanics of Feeding Dependency and Sponsor Debt, has stopped me from trying to hammer it out.

Maybe something like having Supernatural Speed/Strength/Recovery but being able to chose to use less than your full potential, and then only taking Hunger hits based on what you actually used? Or maybe the Sponsor Debt route would be more elegant overall...

Dunno. I don't like the tattoos and I never really thought about how they would work.
Off-hand, I'd recommend being generous. IIRC the tattoos are kind of a weak way to spend 2 Refresh.

They contain, as far as I would count, 1 "full" and 3 "part" stunts (Fellowship Training and Supernatural Player, Biofeedback & Deeper Reserves, respectively). I don't know how to calculate A Warning to Others. I agree that they feel a touch weak overall, though.

But honestly, I'd rather not let them recover without feeding.

That just patently does not work with Red Court Infected. It would (in my mind) make both The Fellowship of S:t Giles and the long term Infected that are used by the Red Court completely impossible. If they can't recover without feeding, they'd slowly lose powers over time and never get them back, which just does not fit with how the Infected are treated in the novels.*

Since RCI's are gonna be NPC's only in the game I play in, and for at least a while further in the game I GM, I'm not actually in any real hurry to figure out how to handle Feeding Dependency and Tattoos yet - NPC's are gonna be as hungry as the plot/story needs them to be.


_{*Tangent but perhaps relevant to see where I'm coming from: If a rule in the RPG makes something shown in the books impossible, I look to change that rule. It can of course be really really hard (say take a crapload of refresh), but what we see in the books need to be possible, otherwise the RPG isn't actually accomplishing what I want it to do. This goes for instance for Focused Practitioners - the rules as they stand (with limits on Refinements) can't handle Mort, thus they need to change. Probably not by a lot, but some.}

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, I guess it could get +1 for knowledge.

I actually think +1 for availability makes more sense. In fact I have trouble justifying the +0 for availability to myself..."people in real love" seems like a very clear example of a rare class of person, but the number isn't in the single digits.

That just patently does not work with Red Court Infected. It would (in my mind) make both The Fellowship of S:t Giles and the long term Infected that are used by the Red Court completely impossible. If they can't recover without feeding, they'd slowly lose powers over time and never get them back, which just does not fit with how the Infected are treated in the novels.*

Eh, they can just drink a bag of blood from the Red Cross.

_{*Tangent but perhaps relevant to see where I'm coming from: If a rule in the RPG makes something shown in the books impossible, I look to change that rule. It can of course be really really hard (say take a crapload of refresh), but what we see in the books need to be possible, otherwise the RPG isn't actually accomplishing what I want it to do.}

Are you planning to re-enact the novels around your table or something?

If so, you've got your work cut out for you. The good news is that Aspects can do everything. If you really want to, you can adapt absolutely anything from any piece of media to DFRPG. There are some downsides to the Aspect-centric approach, but it more or less works.

_{This goes for instance for Focused Practitioners - the rules as they stand (with limits on Refinements) can't handle Mort, thus they need to change. Probably not by a lot, but some.}

No they don't.

Not sure how to say this politely, but...your desires are not that important. Evil Hat is under no obligation to rewrite their game to suit your tastes.

FWIW, I included a homebrew Power when I wrote up Mort. It wasn't 100% necessary, but I think it was a good move. Whether that counts as "changing the rules" is debatable, since the rules explicitly allow for the existence of Powers beyond the ones in the books.

[Cadd]

Eh, they can just drink a bag of blood from the Red Cross.

That really doesn't fit with what we've seen in the novels of infected like Susan.

Ah well, I'll probably just formulate their Feeding Dependency something like "blood, or significant time in sunlight" and reduce the rebate accordingly...

Are you planning to re-enact the novels around your table or something?

If so, you've got your work cut out for you. The good news is that Aspects can do everything. If you really want to, you can adapt absolutely anything from any piece of media to DFRPG. There are some downsides to the Aspect-centric approach, but it more or less works.

Not sure how to say this politely, but...your desires are not that important. Evil Hat is under no obligation to rewrite their game to suit your tastes.

FWIW, I included a homebrew Power when I wrote up Mort. It wasn't 100% necessary, but I think it was a good move. Whether that counts as "changing the rules" is debatable, since the rules explicitly allow for the existence of Powers beyond the ones in the books.

No, I'm not out to reenact the novels at my table - but I want what's happening at my table to fit in the novels, and vice versa.

I'm absolutely not expecting Evil Hat to supply me with every update, and apologize if that seemed to be the tone - what I meant was that I will try to rejigg things for my games when I find the rules not supporting stuff from the novels. I will often at those points ask for advice, to help avoid unforeseen problems.

I'd be very curious to see your take on Mort, and even more your take on Binder, since I really don't feel the power of what they are shown to do in the books can properly come out in the RAW. I'm primarily bugged about the limits on Refinements placed on Focused Practitioners by the pyramid requirement of specializations. I would love to be shown that I've misinterpreted or just misjudged the upper limits of what a Focused Practitioner can do.

[vultur]

I actually think +1 for availability makes more sense. In fact I have trouble justifying the +0 for availability to myself..."people in real love" seems like a very clear example of a rare class of person, but the number isn't in the single digits.

Thing is, though, you can't actually USE that as a Catch just by being in real love. If Harry (back when he had love-protection, say WN) punches Lara in the face, Lara can still heal that just fine... the protection only prevents Lara from feeding on him.

It's only a symbol of love that actually has the harmful effect (unless you're a totally hunger-driven Whampire like Madeline). And yeah, there are probably plenty of those in the world, but how do you know which one is real?

I can certainly see the argument for +1, but I can see it for +0 too. I definitely think it's the trickiest Catch so far, except for the Outsider Starborn thing.


EDIT: As for Mort... he's better at ghost stuff than Harry, but that doesn't necessarily mean he needs lots of refinements. Just a focus item would make him better at it than Harry, who has no focus items or specializations relating to ectomancy. (And Mort's Lore and Discipline are probably at least as good as earlier-books Harry's... Harry's strongest casting stat is Conviction, which isn't so much a thaumaturgy thing.)

[Sanctaphrax]

That really doesn't fit with what we've seen in the novels of infected like Susan.

You sure?

Gonna be honest, it's been a while since I read the novels so I could be misremembering.

Anyway, I think taking Feeding Dependency when you're not actually dependent on feeding seems like a bad idea. Not game-wreckingly awful or anything, it just seems like a lot of hassle compared to using Sponsor Debt or Limitation or normal Aspects.

I'd be very curious to see your take on Mort, and even more your take on Binder, since I really don't feel the power of what they are shown to do in the books can properly come out in the RAW. I'm primarily bugged about the limits on Refinements placed on Focused Practitioners by the pyramid requirement of specializations. I would love to be shown that I've misinterpreted or just misjudged the upper limits of what a Focused Practitioner can do.

I never tried Binder, but the excellent Deadmanwalking did. Hard to work out exactly what stats he needs to do what he did in the books, unfortunately, since combat-related summoning is pure homebrew.

As for Mort, both Deadmanwalking and I took a crack at him. I'll just link to his version, since they're not very different. The custom Power is Mimic Ghost, which lets him borrow a ghost's skills and Stunts and Powers by letting it into his body. He also has Ghost Speaker and a stunt which together let him get a lot of ghostly stuff done without casting a spell.

His ectomancy rituals aren't that powerful, though they are better than Harry's. If I wanted to write him up without custom Powers I'd make his rituals better so that he could do fancy stuff like body-sharing through ritual magic.

EDIT: As for Mort... he's better at ghost stuff than Harry, but that doesn't necessarily mean he needs lots of refinements. Just a focus item would make him better at it than Harry, who has no focus items or specializations relating to ectomancy. (And Mort's Lore and Discipline are probably at least as good as earlier-books Harry's... Harry's strongest casting stat is Conviction, which isn't so much a thaumaturgy thing.)

Agreed.

[Cadd]

You sure?

Gonna be honest, it's been a while since I read the novels so I could be misremembering.

Anyway, I think taking Feeding Dependency when you're not actually dependent on feeding seems like a bad idea. Not game-wreckingly awful or anything, it just seems like a lot of hassle compared to using Sponsor Debt or Limitation or normal Aspects.

We never see nor hear of a Fellowship member use stored blood, which seems really stupid of them if that would let them control their bloodthirst. I get the feeling (note: completely personal opinion) that tasting blood regularly would actually degrade their self-control rather than let them keep it...

However, I agree that it starts to look like a single "Feeding Dependency" rebate-power to cover all the beings that draw power from feeding on something is a less-than-ideal solution, given how different abstinence seems to affect various types. I'll probably try to cook up some kind of framework for sponsor debt or such for when it'll matter for a PC, with the debt giving temp access to a predefined list of powers or something... Then onward to make the Tattoos a help in some mechanical way...

I never tried Binder, but the excellent Deadmanwalking did. Hard to work out exactly what stats he needs to do what he did in the books, unfortunately, since combat-related summoning is pure homebrew.

As for Mort, both Deadmanwalking and I took a crack at him. I'll just link to his version, since they're not very different. The custom Power is Mimic Ghost, which lets him borrow a ghost's skills and Stunts and Powers by letting it into his body. He also has Ghost Speaker and a stunt which together let him get a lot of ghostly stuff done without casting a spell.

His ectomancy rituals aren't that powerful, though they are better than Harry's. If I wanted to write him up without custom Powers I'd make his rituals better so that he could do fancy stuff like body-sharing through ritual magic.

Hm... I guess maybe I misjudged the kind of power needed for Morts stuff. Binder however, I have an issue with that writeup: Foci. How did he use those on Demonreach? The problem with Binder probably isn't actually his spellcasting stats, but the fact that the rules for summoning just doesn't work with his trick, as you said...


Anyway, those are all tangents to the questions I had, and you've helped me think through a lot of stuff with Red Court Infected and the Fellowship of S:t Giles. I'm not all the way to the point I want to be before I have a PC one, but I have a firmer foundation to build on, definitely!

[g33k]

 

His ectomancy rituals aren't that powerful, though they are better than Harry's. If I wanted to write him up without custom Powers I'd make his rituals better so that he could do fancy stuff like body-sharing through ritual magic.

Agreed.

Well... saying he has "... ectomancy... better than Harry's" isn't saying much, at all!  There's a reason that Harry goes to Mort sometimes... Harry's pretty BAD at it (relatively speaking, of course), so when he needs Ectomancy he goes to an expert for help.  So how "expert" is Morty, really?

Thing is, it looks like Mort is not merely "better than Harry."  Mort is a serious badass, Ectomantically speaking.  We know, because Harry isn't our only point of reference and relative power:  we also have Corpsetaker, who's scary-good at Ectomantic stuff (probably (at least) Senior-Council good; all the Kemmlerites were BETTER at *necro/ecto/etc* than WCouncil), and Mort seems to be largely in Corpsetaker's weight-class.  Looking at the prior discussion, I find myself agreeing with narphoenix & HickJr:  Morty's stronger than that write-up (at least, by the end of Ghost Story).  Add evothaum, I think, maybe another stunt or two?

Let's revisit that scene, Corpsetaker vs the Molly/Morty tag-team...

At first, it seems like it's just Molly facing Corpsetaker.  Molly's doing impressively well defending herself, but is definitively loosing.  Corpsetaker seems to be mostly unhurt; maybe a box of stress, maybe a Consequence?  Nothing major.  Then Molly, as a last-ditch measure, gets Morty involved.

But what kind of resource has Molly called upon?  Corpsetaker has been breaking his will down; Morty can't have much left for impressive casting.  He's GOT to be on his last legs... only 1 box of stress left, most Consequences taken, etc.  Not much there...

And Mort one-shot's her.  Granted, he caught her by surprise, but he took her out in her own specialty with one hit.  Granted, it's his specialty too.  But when Molly calls him, he stumbles up the stairs *MAYBE* 20-30 sec's later... how long, REALLY, did he have for pure-Thaum prep?  His body couldn't have sustained a sprint up those steps, he must have started up pretty much the instant Molly got through to him.

One can go back and forth with the "granted"s and the "and/but's" and in the end, it may come down to a matter of personal interpretation, of novels-as-written and RPG-mechanics to date, etc...  But I remain convinced:  Mortimer Lindquist is a hardcore badass, in the Ecto/Necro realm.