The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
KevinSig:
Kinda feels like this thread & the one about people going crazy, because of magic are somewhat related.
I do wonder if the term Black Magic is just generally applied, but the effects are different.
I mean, I'd think the Black Magic backlash for messing with somebody else's head, might be different than outright killing them. Same goes for messing with the time stream & making undead.
Sure, Harry got away with making a Sue dino zombie, on a technicality. But so far, we haven't been told he received a mental backlash from this. If he doesn't get such a backlash from an animal, what's to say that making a zombie does anything different. (I know Cowl was pretty loopy, but it might not have come directly from the Zombie spells.)
So, it raises the question if all that's labeled Black Magic causes specific backlash, or if its just all generally considered illegal, but only certain types of spells have effects on the user.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: hassman on November 24, 2013, 05:49:11 PM ---English spells it either way Ax or Axe. Most people use Ax because they are lazy.
--- End quote ---
I understood the first to be the US spelling and the second the UK English spelling, for what that may be worth.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: KevinSig on November 25, 2013, 04:35:54 PM ---Sure, Harry got away with making a Sue dino zombie, on a technicality. But so far, we haven't been told he received a mental backlash from this. If he doesn't get such a backlash from an animal, what's to say that making a zombie does anything different. (I know Cowl was pretty loopy, but it might not have come directly from the Zombie spells.)
So, it raises the question if all that's labeled Black Magic causes specific backlash, or if its just all generally considered illegal, but only certain types of spells have effects on the user.
--- End quote ---
I think part of the point of DB is that Harry's rules-lawyering about Sue succeeds because of the point of the law against necromancy actually being "do not commit crimes against dead people" rather than "this force is inherently Evil", there is the bit (I think it's chapter 19 of DB, I posted the quote a few weeks back but am not finding it now) where he realised that Kumori using necromancy to save the life of the gangster who got shot was a good act and that he had previously been wrong about necromancy being an inherently evil force.
huangjimmy108:
Molly:
I think it is safe to assume that Molly manage to escape the cosmic taint of black magic while acting as the rag lady. The kind of taint that the Loa spirit sees in Harry's aura during DM.
Her problem is most likely the same as any soldier after a long and extremely grusome war campaign.
Kemmler:
It have to be noted that despite how corrupt Kemmler is, he still have free wil. Kemmler is still human.
It appears that free wil cannot be so easily snuff out. I believe that redemption is still possible for kemmler if he really wanted it, otherwise Harry, Molly and any dinarian have no hope of salvation. According to Michael even Nicodemos can choose the path of redemption.
Which probably explains why the white council have to use not magical means to execute kemmler and other worlocks. Those worlocks may be beyond the WC's power to rehabilitate, doesn't mean that their free wil is completely gone.
Had kemmler completed the Darkhallow, he will become a god. Maybe at that point, killing kemmler will be consider the same as killing a vampire because he is no longer human at all.
Thomas:
Thomas have dual souls. I suspect that doing black magic, the really tainting kind, will reduce his ability to control his demon half. Complete and utter corruption of Thomas's mortal free wil due to black magic usage would probably produce the same result as if the Rampire ritual in CY had succeeded. Thomas will be gone and only his demon half remains.
It is also have to be noted that a whampire's mind whammy, especially the wraith family brand is sort of seduction. In other words, their power entice a human, not compell them. As long as a whampire limits the intensity of his or her mind powers, it might not broken their preys free wil at all.
Of course, feeding too deeply, deep enough to put a mark on the prey's soul or even killing the prey entirely broke free wil. Doing so will cause adiction and more and more dependence upon the demon portion of a whampire's soul.
This would explain why a whampire's first feeding have to be lethal. It have to create that vital breach of free wil in order to entrench the demon half in a newbe whampire. This will also explains why Thomas cannot return to his previous feeding patern after the nagloshi is done with him. The adiction have run too deep due to repeat full feeding.
Tami Seven:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on November 27, 2013, 01:52:16 PM ---Molly:
I think it is safe to assume that Molly manage to escape the cosmic taint of black magic while acting as the rag lady. The kind of taint that the Loa spirit sees in Harry's aura during DM.
Her problem is most likely the same as any soldier after a long and extremely grusome war campaign.
--- End quote ---
Molly's tainted just as Harry is. But like Harry, she has other factors to counter balance the taint. Her upbringing in a very religious family, her relationship with Harry and what he taught her, and her own sense of right and wrong. And now the taint might not be so much an issue as the mantle of the WL. Depends on which corrupting force is stronger and if she is stronger than both.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on November 27, 2013, 01:52:16 PM ---Kemmler:
It have to be noted that despite how corrupt Kemmler is, he still have free wil. Kemmler is still human.
It appears that free wil cannot be so easily snuff out. I believe that redemption is still possible for kemmler if he really wanted it, otherwise Harry, Molly and any dinarian have no hope of salvation. According to Michael even Nicodemos can choose the path of redemption.
Which probably explains why the white council have to use not magical means to execute kemmler and other worlocks. Those worlocks may be beyond the WC's power to rehabilitate, doesn't mean that their free wil is completely gone.
Had kemmler completed the Darkhallow, he will become a god. Maybe at that point, killing kemmler will be consider the same as killing a vampire because he is no longer human at all.
--- End quote ---
Kemmler was a prime example of why the Wardens were created. He was the bad one, the one that broke the Laws and delved into Dark Magic with both eyes open.
The Wardens swords are their protection against Black Magic, a way for them to dispatch a Warlock without being tainted themselves.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on November 27, 2013, 01:52:16 PM ---Thomas:
Thomas have dual souls. I suspect that doing black magic, the really tainting kind, will reduce his ability to control his demon half. Complete and utter corruption of Thomas's mortal free wil due to black magic usage would probably produce the same result as if the Rampire ritual in CY had succeeded. Thomas will be gone and only his demon half remains.
It is also have to be noted that a whampire's mind whammy, especially the wraith family brand is sort of seduction. In other words, their power entice a human, not compell them. As long as a whampire limits the intensity of his or her mind powers, it might not broken their preys free wil at all.
Of course, feeding too deeply, deep enough to put a mark on the prey's soul or even killing the prey entirely broke free wil. Doing so will cause adiction and more and more dependence upon the demon portion of a whampire's soul.
This would explain why a whampire's first feeding have to be lethal. It have to create that vital breach of free wil in order to entrench the demon half in a newbe whampire. This will also explains why Thomas cannot return to his previous feeding patern after the nagloshi is done with him. The adiction have run too deep due to repeat full feeding.
--- End quote ---
First point of correction, Thomas (and other WCV) don't have two souls. They have a demon parasite attached to their soul. Does the demon have a soul of its' own? Most demons probably don't.
Would Thomas using Black Magic be affected by the Taint? That is the question I asked, but you do have a good point. If Thomas' mortal soul was corrupted by the taint of Black Magic it might very well give his demon the opening it needs to take nearly full control. The Thomas we know would be gone for good.
Perhaps one of the reasons why there are so few WCV Wizards (JB once said there were some, but I have yet to see any of them). The risk of being tempted to do Black Magic, the risk of being tainted by it, might be too big a price. Even the darkest of WCV hold onto their mortal souls to some degree. They all know that if the demon did take over completely, it would be worse than what happened to Thomas in TC. They would be nothing more than predatory, feral animals. Not mindless, but not civilized in any way and certainly not themselves.
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