The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Law Breaking Vs Black Magic [Spoilers for everything]
Serack:
--- Quote from: Tami Seven on November 24, 2013, 02:39:39 PM ---Your thread, it makes me wonder about something. Don't know if there has been a WoJ on this or anything like that.
If Thomas (as the best example of someone in the grey area between human and non-human) does magic, uses magic to harm another or otherwise violate one of the 7 laws, would he experience the same cosmic backlash as, say, Harry would?
--- End quote ---
*points out that Jim makes a big deal that such a backlash would not be remotely mystic or sentient, but rather something "which obeyed certain universal laws that governed its interaction with reality."* Not that your wording implies otherwise, but I want to keep that point firm, because I might not have done enough to emphasize that in my posts.
--- Quote ---The council has passed judgment on non-Wizards, human practitioners, and other low-level magic users before. Thomas, however, is not under their jurisdiction. I think that is commonly accepted as true.
But this is not really about the White Council as much as it us about the other aspect of Black Magic.
When Thomas does magic, he does experience a mild murphionic effect, as seen in Backup when he discussed the effect his magic has on his cell phone, which might be stronger if his magic was stronger. Something usually associated with human magic users. He is human enough to create that kind of effect. Is he, or someone like him, human enough to experience the cosmic/psychological backlash that can make someone a 'warlock'?
If so, then this could, potentially, open up a whole new can of worms for the White Council. If not, then does Thomas and other WCV (or other Non-humans, if there are any, in similar situation) have a built in 'Blackstaff effect' that keeps them from the negative repercussions of using magic to harm others?
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Although in Backup Thomas introduces himself with, "and I'm a monster," Jim has said that unless a Wampire is really vamping out, they are hardly affected by a threshold because they are too mortal. In Thomas' case not only is he a typically grey area wampire, but he tries reeeealy hard to hold onto his humanity, and I think this really matters when addressing your question. This ties into my first possible reason why "Black Magic" vs Mortals matters." If Thomas already had given into/embraced his hunger, he could already be so far twisted by it that some black magic would not make much difference. Think Madeline.
Serack:
--- Quote from: hassman on November 24, 2013, 02:51:30 PM ---I agree with your sentiment.
There is a significant difference between:
using an illusion to get someone to kill each other (Molly)
using a firestorm to burn down a building causing human deaths (Harry)
using a spell to remove the life from people (Eb)
There are three axes to look at these instances.
Intent consequences are to your conscience. enough deaths break you or turn you into a sociopath.
Morality consequences are to your soul/karma. Depending on your view, consequences are after your death.
Black Magic. consequences are unclear, but addiction and insanity seem likely. When Eb used direct death magic, black crap appeared on his arms and was eventually sucked into the staff. I believe that this was not from the use of the staff, but from the use of direct death magic. The staff allows the bearer to remove the taint.
The laws of magic deal with all three, but I surmise that they were written for #3. I further surmise that using death magic will turn you into a warlock similar to the boy executed, with nothing human left. My question is that is this a function of humans or a function of magic?
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I wana say it's a function of a human using magic on a human. Magic is rewriting reality, and since magic is the tool you chose to use, will/mind gets reshaped by what you did to reality with it. The "Tinkers" in The Wheel of Time liked to point out that the tree harms the ax when it is used to cut one down.
(on a far far different note, why the &*#$ does English spell ax without an e but battleaxe has an e at the end. Oh well, spelling will always frustrate me.)
hassman:
--- Quote from: Serack on November 24, 2013, 03:14:43 PM ---(on a far far different note, why the &*#$ does English spell ax without an e but battleaxe has an e at the end. Oh well, spelling will always frustrate me.)
--- End quote ---
English spells it either way Ax or Axe. Most people use Ax because they are lazy.
Tami Seven:
--- Quote from: Serack on November 24, 2013, 03:05:54 PM ---*points out that Jim makes a big deal that such a backlash would not be remotely mystic or sentient, but rather something "which obeyed certain universal laws that governed its interaction with reality."* Not that your wording implies otherwise, but I want to keep that point firm, because I might not have done enough to emphasize that in my posts.
Although in Backup Thomas introduces himself with, "and I'm a monster," Jim has said that unless a Wampire is really vamping out, they are hardly affected by a threshold because they are too mortal. In Thomas' case not only is he a typically grey area wampire, but he tries reeeealy hard to hold onto his humanity, and I think this really matters when addressing your question. This ties into my first possible reason why "Black Magic" vs Mortals matters." If Thomas already had given into/embraced his hunger, he could already be so far twisted by it that some black magic would not make much difference. Think Madeline.
--- End quote ---
Even from beyond the grave, I think Margaret LeFay is still challenging the Seven Laws. Should any Wizard go after him with magic, Thomas may prove to be a test case, a way to see if there are inherent flaws in the Laws and their applications. Can you be tainted by using Magic against someone not considered to be human?
Still, I see an element of belief in this. If a Wizard strongly believes that someone isn't human, even if they are, there may not be any psychological ramifications of using magic against them.
If Harry didn't see that the being hidden behind the veil of the wild hunt was human, the one he attacked, it would not impact his psychology. His perception of himself as a user of Black Magic.
Serack:
--- Quote from: Tami Seven on November 24, 2013, 06:06:12 PM ---Even from beyond the grave, I think Margaret LeFay is still challenging the Seven Laws. Should any Wizard go after him with magic, Thomas may prove to be a test case, a way to see if there are inherent flaws in the Laws and their applications. Can you be tainted by using Magic against someone not considered to be human?
Still, I see an element of belief in this. If a Wizard strongly believes that someone isn't human, even if they are, there may not be any psychological ramifications of using magic against them.
If Harry didn't see that the being hidden behind the veil of the wild hunt was human, the one he attacked, it would not impact his psychology. His perception of himself as a user of Black Magic.
--- End quote ---
Let me take this analogy a bit further and say Rodreguez uses his magic to disencorporate (like he did to the bullets in WN with his gauntlet) a building that he has every reason to believe is empty, and never ever finds out that it actually had a mortal in it. His magic directly shreaded a mortal and he never knows.
The "Wizards are card carrying members of humanity" portion of my reasoning for "Vs a Mortal Matters" would not kick in because he didn't chose to do it, however, the "Mortal Will has Metaphysical Mass" portion would still matter. It is concievable that because a mortal will was snuffed out by magic, the metaphysical ramifications of a free will being snuffed out by magic could affect this wizard. I can see the mechanics for this working being much like if a wizard gives his word by his magic that he would return something to someone before they die, Fed-Exes it to the person and never hears from them again because they had a heart attack before it was shipped.
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