A couple of magic-questions

[Cadd]

There's a couple of points I want clarification/confirmation on - it's also quite possible that more will turn up, if so I'll just add them to the thread later...

Enchanted Items:
A character w Good (+3) Lore has an enchanted item, a circlet with crystals. The effect is a maneuver for the aspect "hyperalert" (to be tagged when trying to avoid surprise attacks). It has an additional slot spend into being usable 3 times per session. Since Enchanted Items can store Thaumaturgy effects as well as Evocation effects, the maneuver will last for the scene, right? When the tag has been spent, can another use of the item during the same scene create a new tag, even though the aspect is technically still there to be invoked w FPs?

Evocation:
A rote spell has a fixed amount of power, but how those shifts are "spent" can be chosen on the fly, right? A Maneuver rote can be used either at full strength and no extra duration OR reduced strength (thus more easily counterspelled) to make it last longer and still get the rote benefits either way?

An evocation block can instead be made to work as a zone border, this is mentioned along with using it as armour instead of a block. Since the half-power-as-effect is specifically about armour, I take it a zone border is at full strength - but does it cost the extra 2 shifts normally required to affect a whole zone (since a zone border is basically a zone-wide block against movement, isn't it?) or is that for "free"? Also - does it fall after someone manages to pass it?

Take for instance - a wall of fire, 6 feet high. A supernatural being could conceivably jump that firewall (basically rolling Athletics as a sprint action high enough to surpass the border rating) - narratively I don't see a reason for the spell to fall, but what is the mechanical standpoint?

[Taran]

Enchanted Items:

A power 3 maneuver is probably not sticky.  So since it's fragile, it would go away as soon as you tag it.
If it was a power 4 maneuver (and nobody opposed it), it would last the whole scene (with only one tag) and multiple uses of the item would give another free tag - or, if you want, a second duplicate aspect - depending on what the aspect is and if it makes sense to have two going simultaneously..

The whole scene duration is, really, my opinion.  I'm not exactly clear on whether they should last the whole scene. Also, It depends on the effect of the maneuver.  As far as I know, things like Enchanted item armour and blocks only last for one exchange and not for the whole scene so I don't really see a reason why a maneuver would last the whole scene unless the maneuver is a permanent, non-magical, effect like "kindling on fire" and it's sticky.

Evocation:

-Rotes
You have no flexibility with a rote.  You must decide the duration, effect and power of all attacks and maneuvers in advance.  Once determined, they are cast exactly the same all the time.

- borders
Zone borders are full strength.  The paragraph is silly and they don't really separate the two things very well.

I think, often times, a zone will have multiple borders.  If you want to put up a zone border, it will affect one border.  If you want to completely enclose a zone, you need to add 2 shifts to make It a zone-wide border.

Example:
 an area might have a fence on one side (border 3), a brick wall on two other sides( border 8 ) and an open area (border 0) on the 3rd.  Your zone border(power7) will affect one of those borders.  To affect the fence and the open area, you need to add 2 shifts to hit the whole zone.

Whether or not the border goes down depends on how it is bypassed.  In the case of zone borders, I think you just use your best judgement.  If I use a fire-hose against your Fire-wall, you can assume the border has been destroyed.

My personal opinion is that border blocks created via spells don't automatically go down the same way that normal spell blocks do.  As I said, I think you should use your best judgement.

[Haru]

I usually make maneuvers last a scene as well, no matter if it is thaumaturgy or evocation, sticky or fragile. Thaumaturgy just can put more energy in to make it last beyond that.
I find it highly frustrating to spend mental stress on something and the circumstances make it so that you need to do something else the next exchange, and now it's gone. I'd much prefer for the circumstances to change, and you have to use the aspect that was meant for another action in a creative new way, since it doesn't fit your new plan as good as your old one.
I'm not even sure if the book explicitly says that the "1 shift = 1 exchange" rule from blocks counts for maneuvers as well, but I don't think so.

On the other hand, a "hyperalert" spell is the reflex trigger of Fate. Imagine if you are hyperalert about anything. Using a spell like that too often could make it sort of linger, and you can't sleep, because a fly is rubbing its legs together down the hall, or the leaves are rustling too loud on the street. Or you get a little trigger happy. Try to buy milk, someone next to you drops something, and you are ready to rip them to pieces. It's just ripe with compels.

A zone border spell can also cut a zone in half and create two smaller zones with a border between them equal to the strength of the spell.

[Taran]

I'm not even sure if the book explicitly says that the "1 shift = 1 exchange" rule from blocks counts for maneuvers as well, but I don't think so.

It actually specifically mentions it:

252-253
Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than
attacking and blocking. By default, pulling off
most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if
the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated
higher than Good (+3), that skill total determines
the required number of shifts.

As with other effects, you can pay an additional
shift to make the effect persistent at the
rate of 1 shift per additional exchange.

Bolded mine.

It would actually make counter-spelling more useful if spell maneuvers just lasted a scene instead of needing to put shifts of duration into them.

I just assume, for crafting, evocation effects last as long as an evocation (so you can build in duration if you want) while thaum effects work the same as thaum.   Although, you can do anything with thaum that you can do with evocation, so I see no reason to have your Amour 2 triggered item last all scene.  It just seems overly powerful.  Dunno.  I think it's safe to assume the aspects last an entire scene.

But if you look at the above description, if the maneuver could be opposed, you might need more power than 3.  Someone's skill in report might be 4 and, as they talk to you, their allies are readying for an ambush.  The person with the Rapport 4 has effectively countered your triggered aspect.

[Cadd]

Thanks for the input!

The thing about rote spells with different duration and such is that the rotes mentioned in character statblocks indicate that flexibility, while the text on Rote Spells isn't 100% unambiguous. I tend to read "Any change in the parameters of the spell disqualifies it from being a rote." as including how the shifts are spent, but Molly's rote Hide says (emphasis mine)

Hide (Spirit block, three shifts): Veils
Molly and one or two additional people
standing with her. Seeing through the
veil requires a roll against a difficulty of
Good (+3) unless she expends a shift into
persistence.

and Harry's shield

Shield (spirit block, four shifts): creates
a hemispheric shield in front of Harry ’s
wrist and acts as either Armor or a
block. Usually, Harry uses one shift for
persistence, so he can do something
else in the following exchange without
renewing the shield. Requires the shield
bracelet.

This seem to indicate that the line on p257 "It always manifests in exactly the same way each time, has the same power level, places the exact same aspect, etc." doesn't include how the power is spent, just how much power is included in it...


About the aspect: as the player herself quoted from the book - "double-edged aspects for the win!", oh it will be compelled! Especially if she's using it often 

About the border, good, I'll let what feels natural in the situation dictate whether it falls or not. And thanks for the "+2 shifts for zone-wide = boxing in the zone" idea, it hadn't even occurred to me!

[Taran]

All I can say about persistence is that you can add extra shifts to prolong a spell in subsequent rounds.  So if Molly wants to keep the spell up, she'd have to spend extra shifts in the next round.

You cast your rote, then you prolong it in the next exchange.

But yeah, those stats seem to imply some flexibility.

As for the armour/block.  I think it's assumed to be the same spell - even for an enchanted item you can determine how the block manifests when you activate/cast it.

I'd be careful if you allow some wiggle-room.  Don't let them save 2 shifts of power on a block for duration on one instance then let them use those 2 shifts to affect their allies in another.  Or, I wouldn't allow that.

Edit:  Just to add to that quote of your:

Any change in the parameters
of the spell disqualifies it from being rote.

[Haru]

It actually specifically mentions it:

Ah, look at that. I guess it's one of those rules I didn't like so much that I completely erased it from memory. 

I can easily make a lasting maneuver with magic, like "burst pipes" or "smashed door", and it just wouldn't make sense to remove that, just because the time ran out, since the things don't just repair themselves.
And if that's the case, people are going to tend to try to always go for things like that, just so their maneuvers will last. And if that's the case, you can make the lasting just baseline and remove the hassle. At least that's my reasoning.

@Cadd
Some of the example spells are inconsistent at best or take some creative interpretation to make work.

In the case of Molly, it could mean that she needs to pump more energy into the spell. If she just uses her rote, which is simply her go to "oh shit, need to go" spell, then she can't see through it. If she prolongs the spell, puts more energy into it by casting it again, then she can put one shift aside to improve the transparency.

Harry is a bit more straight forward. A block 4 and armor 2 are actually identical. The only difference is that armor can stack with blocks, blocks can't stack with blocks. So to get a use out of the shield spell if Harry is behind a block already, it might be necessary to change the mechanical representation of the spell. It is still the same spell narratively, and it still has the same numerical value (4 shifts of power), you just adjust its use to what else you have around you.

I'm with Taran on the wiggle room. A group shield rote is a group shield rote, no matter what. If you cover one person with it, it is still a dome big enough to hide a car under.