The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)
Ziggelly:
--- Quote from: Karthak on November 05, 2013, 03:25:46 PM ---When he's laying down the law to the winter court:
My voice echoed throughout the whole chamber as clearly as if I’d been using a PA system. “All right, you primitive screwheads. Listen up. I’m Harry Dresden. I’m the new Winter Knight. I’m instituting a rule: When you’re within sight of me, mortals are off-limits.” I paused for a moment to let that sink in. Then I continued. “I can’t give you orders. I can’t control what you do in your own domains. I’m not going to be able to change you. I’m not even going to try. But if I see you abusing a mortal, you’ll join Chunky here. Zero warnings. Zero excuses. Subzero tolerance.”
I paused again and then asked, “Any questions?” One of the Sidhe smirked and stepped forward, his leather pants creaking. He opened his mouth, his expression condescending. “Mortal, do you actually think that you can—” “Infriga!” I snarled, unleashing Winter again, and without waiting for the cloud to clear, hurled the second strike, shouting, “Forzare!” This time I aimed much of the force up. Grisly bits of frozen Sidhe noble came pattering and clattering down to the ice of the dance floor.
When I first read this I did a mental double-take. Harry committed murder there. Seriously, he straight up murdered a sapient being for the crime of disagreeing with him, and somehow it's okay because it was a Sidhe, not a human. And nobody calls him out on it. There have been other instances of speciesism in the series, but this takes the cake.
--- End quote ---
A) It wasn't that the sidhe was disagreeing with Harry, it was what he was disagreeing with. Harry told them that they cannot kill or torture mortals -- who are also sentient beings -- while in his presence. The sidhe in question piped up with the equivalent of "you can't tell us what to do!" It wasn't that he wasn't human, it was the fact that he seemed to be active condoning the kidnapping/murder/torture/rape of innocents. Harry would've reacted similarly to mortals who did the same. It would be speciesism if Harry treated the sidhe differently because "ah, he's a faery, that's who they are."
B) The winter sidhe don't seem to respect much aside from violence and power. Harry knew that there was no other way of enforcing his rules in about the two seconds that he had to make a decision.
C) Harry's never claimed to be completely morally correct guy, or a non-hypocrite.
raidem:
--- Quote ---Does this mean Harry is getting colder and more ruthless? Yep, Mab in general is happy with Harry’s development, even if she might have preferred not losing the Sidhe Lord.
--- End quote ---
This is the aspect that I am arguing. And I would agree with this too:
--- Quote ---C) Harry's never claimed to be completely morally correct guy, or a non-hypocrite.
--- End quote ---
Harry purposely intended Susan to transform into a RC vampire so that he could "sacrifice" her and kill off the Red Court Vampires. This was a very cold act and he suffers from it.
Rasins:
--- Quote from: raidem on November 05, 2013, 04:03:48 PM ---The fact that something may or may not be sanctioned by Mab doesn't absolve Harry from right or wrong in the matter. I suspect Mab would quite approve of a Harry that becomes a monster.
--- End quote ---
Ah, sorry raidem, but we are talking about murder. Murder is a legal term, not a moral one. From a moral perspective killing is "always" wrong, so even the first one was morally questionable.
If we are going to go there, then we have to condem him for killing Kavros, Victor, The entire red court ....
Mira:
--- Quote from: Rasins on November 05, 2013, 03:59:17 PM ---I would argue that the second was sanctioned by Mab as well, by the fact that she then danced with Harry. In Mab's realm Power is the law. Harry was establishing where he was on the Power scale, and Mab approved of it.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, did it really happen? Isn't a rule about spilling blood at her court? Because a little bit later when actual blood was spilled there was a big stink about it. Maybe it was an illusion?
raidem:
--- Quote ---From a moral perspective killing is "always" wrong, so even the first one was morally questionable.
--- End quote ---
Not true. This largely depends on whose morality we are talking about.
--- Quote ---Ah, sorry raidem, but we are talking about murder. Murder is a legal term, not a moral one.
--- End quote ---
And in the view of Winter, Mab doesn't consider murder to be a crime. She has two laws: neither of which prohibits murder. Her law is such that one may not speak to her without first obtaining permission and secondly, one must not draw blood.
And, there is no real life law that makes killing sidhe a crime. For one, sidhe don't exist in our world. Also, there is no equating killing of an animal other than human to be a crime of murder.
--- Quote ---Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
--- End quote ---
Morality is that which shapes what is lawful and what isn't.
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