Building vs. growing your story

[slrogers]

So as I understand it, there are two general approaches to story creation in terms of either starting with a strong outline and building the story inward or starting with basic ideas and strong characters and discovering where the story takes you.

I think I personally want some combination of the two, but it proves to be difficult. As I try to grow the story, it's hard to keep track of all of the details. As I try to build the structure and fill in the story, the story doesn't seem to fit (or fits awkwardly). I imagine that I just need to keep writing to work it all out, but the more I try the more pitfalls I find.

How do you avoid all of the pitfalls of story creation, or choose which ones to focus on? (and let the others happen and hope they're not to bad?) It seems like there's a lot to keep track of.

[The Deposed King]

So as I understand it, there are two general approaches to story creation in terms of either starting with a strong outline and building the story inward or starting with basic ideas and strong characters and discovering where the story takes you.

I think I personally want some combination of the two, but it proves to be difficult. As I try to grow the story, it's hard to keep track of all of the details. As I try to build the structure and fill in the story, the story doesn't seem to fit (or fits awkwardly). I imagine that I just need to keep writing to work it all out, but the more I try the more pitfalls I find.

How do you avoid all of the pitfalls of story creation, or choose which ones to focus on? (and let the others happen and hope they're not to bad?) It seems like there's a lot to keep track of.

Have you ever Game Mastered?  One way to do it is to think of your players when you are trying to focus.  Ask yourself, would my players want to hear this lengthy diversion into this super cool world I've built or are they more likely to rebel and go outside to thrash some monsters.  The next time you wonder you have to ask yourself, do my characters want to hear about what the inn looks like or are they more likely to want to buy some ale, get a room and start raising some hell.  Do they want to spend a half hour working on this intricate puzzle that will open the lock to this cool treasure... or go straight through the front door of the thieves guild (knowing they'll probably die) smashing things with warhammers until they get to the loot?

Less is more.  You don't need to show 'everything'.  Just give your readers enough to follow where you are going and keep the action fast paced and popping.  You're beta's will be more than happy to forgive a lot if you do this and what's more, point out those specific instances where you actually do need to do more of you 'world building'.

We must avoid the dreaded info dump with all the strength in our bodies!


have a blast,


The Deposed King!

[slrogers]

Have you ever Game Mastered?  One way to do it is to think of your players when you are trying to focus.  Ask yourself, would my players want to hear this lengthy diversion into this super cool world I've built or are they more likely to rebel and go outside to thrash some monsters.  The next time you wonder you have to ask yourself, do my characters want to hear about what the inn looks like or are they more likely to want to buy some ale, get a room and start raising some hell.  Do they want to spend a half hour working on this intricate puzzle that will open the lock to this cool treasure... or go straight through the front door of the thieves guild (knowing they'll probably die) smashing things with warhammers until they get to the loot?

That's a good way to think about it, though I haven't done much as a dungeon or game master. Along the same lines I like thinking about it the way Inception talks about how to architect dreams.

Less is more.  You don't need to show 'everything'.  Just give your readers enough to follow where you are going and keep the action fast paced and popping.  You're beta's will be more than happy to forgive a lot if you do this and what's more, point out those specific instances where you actually do need to do more of you 'world building'.

We must avoid the dreaded info dump with all the strength in our bodies!

But the question isn't so much how much do I put in the story. Though I think that those that do more architecting tend to have more troubles with info dumping than those that "discover" or "grow" their story. The question is more about what to do outside of the story in terms of design and brainstorming, so that when you are putting the story together you don't end up with missing or awkward pieces, week (or sagging story line), characters that end up doing too much (taking over the story) or too little, ... [the list goes on with potential pit falls to story telling]. And while each beta reader, friend, or editor that looks at the story might pick up on some of these and help alleviate the problems they find, they might not know exactly what or where the problem is, or inadvertently lead you into new pitfalls.

Maybe it's partly a question of writing tools. How do you outline, or keep track of all of the ideas, characters, threads, ...? How do you make sure you have a solid, exciting story? How do you make sure your cool, amazing ideas get put together in a way that doesn't fall apart?

[The Deposed King]

That's a good way to think about it, though I haven't done much as a dungeon or game master. Along the same lines I like thinking about it the way Inception talks about how to architect dreams.

But the question isn't so much how much do I put in the story. Though I think that those that do more architecting tend to have more troubles with info dumping than those that "discover" or "grow" their story. The question is more about what to do outside of the story in terms of design and brainstorming, so that when you are putting the story together you don't end up with missing or awkward pieces, week (or sagging story line), characters that end up doing too much (taking over the story) or too little, ... [the list goes on with potential pit falls to story telling]. And while each beta reader, friend, or editor that looks at the story might pick up on some of these and help alleviate the problems they find, they might not know exactly what or where the problem is, or inadvertently lead you into new pitfalls.

Maybe it's partly a question of writing tools. How do you outline, or keep track of all of the ideas, characters, threads, ...? How do you make sure you have a solid, exciting story? How do you make sure your cool, amazing ideas get put together in a way that doesn't fall apart?

Have a firm idea of the events that need to happen and then the next thing is the order in which they need to happen.  These are the 'milestones' you need to hit along the way.  Next are your characters and those cool little twists and things that 'could' be optional but that you really want to put in.

After you've got those down with the first set 'the milestones' almost set in stone and the second set the 'characters and twists' more malleable to allow for story telling the only real thing left to do is write it.

Its a horrible thing to hear but the first book you write will suck (thus sayeth 90%+ of published authors), however after its written then you have 'bones' of a story.  Anyone can edit the bones (now they may not be very good at it) but very few people can pump out a 300-400 page book that is in dire need of editing.  Once you've got your ugly Dr. Frankenstiens skeleton then its time to finish putting the meat on it!

As for everything hanging together and being consistent... everyone's got a different way of doing it.  I know people (published authors) who write 10k plot outlines.  I know people (published authors) where just about everything is in their head and at the end of a book they've written a separate file of about 2k worth of words strictly for keeping the names of your characters, et- important people, places and things.

Its like with game mastering or taking notes in class.  Books are like classes.  Some of them require you to take notes early and often, others you have to slavishly write down everything you hear from teh teacher before taking the test.  Others you can wing it.  However in any group of students.  Some will take notes even if its not strictly needed and others will do their darndest to take as few notes as they can possibly get away with.  A large part of this is memory and personality.

Some Game Masters 'need' a gaming module, and not the module, it has to be right in front of them before they can run an adventure.  Other guys, read the module once and reference it occasionally for important events.  And then there are the Dungeon Masters who run everything in their heads and only write down important bad guys and then only their vital statistics.

The answer to your question is pretty much that there is no hard and fast answer to your question.  Which is an answer in itself.  You don't 'have' to slavishly plot out everything in advance, unless 'you' have to do such a thing to be able to write.  Also you 'could' write nothing down in advance or as you're going.  But most people try to find a happy medium.

I will say for my first book the brother and added 10%+ of new material, and must have rewritten three times that.  For my second book, we added entire sub plots involving two pivitol secondary characters who only got a couple of high stakes mentions in the main line, the sub-plots were added 'after' the book was already written, so that none of the 'coolness' of the story was missing or left out.

When I have logical disconnects of time line inconsistencies that I missed, we have to take a hard look and fix it after the book is written.  I keep a running file of things I need to remember as I go along, this file is separate from my book.  I've even written a couple hundred word plot outline for my 5th book.  (the first book I've ever done this with)

Asking how you learn how to do these things?  The answer is like asking how do I learn how to ride a bike?  First you watch and are told things like hold the handle bars straight and pedal.  Then just have to get up on the bike and wobble around before crashing and burning.  After a few tries you'll get the hang of it.

Sorry for rambling, its getting late.



The Deposed King

[slrogers]

Its a horrible thing to hear but the first book you write will suck (thus sayeth 90%+ of published authors), however after its written then you have 'bones' of a story.  Anyone can edit the bones (now they may not be very good at it) but very few people can pump out a 300-400 page book that is in dire need of editing.  Once you've got your ugly Dr. Frankenstiens skeleton then its time to finish putting the meat on it!

Fortunately my first book doesn't suck, well maybe the first draft did, but it's still not the amazing masterpiece that maybe it could be.

As for everything hanging together and being consistent... everyone's got a different way of doing it.  I know people (published authors) who write 10k plot outlines.  I know people (published authors) where just about everything is in their head and at the end of a book they've written a separate file of about 2k worth of words strictly for keeping the names of your characters, et- important people, places and things.

Its like with game mastering or taking notes in class.  Books are like classes.  Some of them require you to take notes early and often, others you have to slavishly write down everything you hear from teh teacher before taking the test.  Others you can wing it.  However in any group of students.  Some will take notes even if its not strictly needed and others will do their darndest to take as few notes as they can possibly get away with.  A large part of this is memory and personality.

Some Game Masters 'need' a gaming module, and not the module, it has to be right in front of them before they can run an adventure.  Other guys, read the module once and reference it occasionally for important events.  And then there are the Dungeon Masters who run everything in their heads and only write down important bad guys and then only their vital statistics.

The answer to your question is pretty much that there is no hard and fast answer to your question.  Which is an answer in itself.  You don't 'have' to slavishly plot out everything in advance, unless 'you' have to do such a thing to be able to write.  Also you 'could' write nothing down in advance or as you're going.  But most people try to find a happy medium.

I will say for my first book the brother and added 10%+ of new material, and must have rewritten three times that.  For my second book, we added entire sub plots involving two pivitol secondary characters who only got a couple of high stakes mentions in the main line, the sub-plots were added 'after' the book was already written, so that none of the 'coolness' of the story was missing or left out.

When I have logical disconnects of time line inconsistencies that I missed, we have to take a hard look and fix it after the book is written.  I keep a running file of things I need to remember as I go along, this file is separate from my book.  I've even written a couple hundred word plot outline for my 5th book.  (the first book I've ever done this with)

Asking how you learn how to do these things?  The answer is like asking how do I learn how to ride a bike?  First you watch and are told things like hold the handle bars straight and pedal.  Then just have to get up on the bike and wobble around before crashing and burning.  After a few tries you'll get the hang of it.

Sorry for rambling, its getting late.

It's cool hearing how things come together for you, and how you work with your brother and others to build your stories. So don't worry about "rambling", at least for my part; I enjoy it.

It's hard figuring out what works for me and what new talents I need to develop. I think the biggest trouble I have is that the story has always been amazingly awesome in my own head, but it's hard to understand what "story" other's read and how and why those stories are different and what things are good about it and what things I need to change in how I write.

Also, and somewhat related, I play chess. And one of the things I've learned from chess is that sometimes practice is only reinforcing bad habits, and bad behavior and no real progress is made. I'm worried that this is probably true with writing as well. Since there are some prolific published authors that still have some of the same bad habits in later books that sometimes just come to characterize their writing. But I'm certain that there must be ways to practice, study, and learn so that I'm actually getting better.

Thanks for your feedback.

[The Deposed King]

Fortunately my first book doesn't suck, well maybe the first draft did, but it's still not the amazing masterpiece that maybe it could be.

It's cool hearing how things come together for you, and how you work with your brother and others to build your stories. So don't worry about "rambling", at least for my part; I enjoy it.

It's hard figuring out what works for me and what new talents I need to develop. I think the biggest trouble I have is that the story has always been amazingly awesome in my own head, but it's hard to understand what "story" other's read and how and why those stories are different and what things are good about it and what things I need to change in how I write.

Also, and somewhat related, I play chess. And one of the things I've learned from chess is that sometimes practice is only reinforcing bad habits, and bad behavior and no real progress is made. I'm worried that this is probably true with writing as well. Since there are some prolific published authors that still have some of the same bad habits in later books that sometimes just come to characterize their writing. But I'm certain that there must be ways to practice, study, and learn so that I'm actually getting better.

Thanks for your feedback.

I'm glad if anything I do here can help writers.  That's the reason I'm here.  I want to help encourage and support and hope at the same time that I can benefit as well.

My main complaint here is actually how limited this forum is.  Regardless this place has a large community of aspiring and a few actual authors.

Anyway another piece of advice or information or whatever you want to call it 'rambling' perhaps    This one regarding beta readers.

There are essentially two types of beta readers.

-copy edit/grammar nazis

-storyline/plot/character helpers

Now the first the grammar guys/gals are the ones you need to help you make your book readable enough that others will buy your book.

The Second are the ones that make sure that once they start your book they are actually interested enough to go past the 10% free read section on their kindle.

You have to have both of these types of people to help you with your writing.  Edith Maor over at baen's bar is a prime example of the first.  Spots those commas, improperly captialized words, will go through your chapters and red pen with suggestions.  Almost no feedback on how good your story is or what sucks or what could be improved.  Getting those kind of comments out of here is almost like pulling teeth.  She went through 67 chapters of my fantasy book over at the bar and I got 'maybe' a dozen good story/plot comments.

Panesgray on the other hand is almost the exact opposite.  I mean not exactly because he did a lot more catches with egregious grammer/sentace structure Fails etc.  But when it came to story/plot/or-characters he had an opinion early and often.  With not only identifying problems but good or great suggestions on what and how to improve.  About 80-90% where pretty much bang on.

Whereas Edith makes you book more readable, PG makes your books more believable and fun.

You've got to have both kinds of helpers to one degree or another.




The Deposed King

[Wordmaker]

I'm also a bit of both when it comes to my work. When starting something new, I typically dive in and write what comes to me, coming up with ideas for scenes and characters going to and from work. Then about at the midway point I start planning how to tie everything together for the end.

That said, with my third book, I've almost completely planned the story in advance, because I don't want to forget any loose ends.

[slrogers]

I'm also a bit of both when it comes to my work. When starting something new, I typically dive in and write what comes to me, coming up with ideas for scenes and characters going to and from work. Then about at the midway point I start planning how to tie everything together for the end.

That said, with my third book, I've almost completely planned the story in advance, because I don't want to forget any loose ends.

Do you also use beta readers, or is that harder to do with a publisher? Or perhaps having a one good editor has its bennifits over a swarm of helpful betas. (Though the expense to an indi feels a bit prohibitive -- especially if you need one for story and another for grammar.)

[slrogers]

Oops, sorry. There's another whole thread on that. I should have gone there first.
Thanks.

[Wordmaker]

Actually I have critique partners who help with every stage, betas who read the first draft, and my editor who helps me once I'm on contract for the book.

No matter how good your betas, I would always recommend having a professional editor. It's expensive if you self-publish, yes, but it's worth the investment.

[slrogers]

So with the amount and speed at which both of you write, how much to you send to others to look over, and how many drafts do you go through?

It seems as though I've swamped my writers group.

I think if I ever get to the same level that you guys are at that they'd never be able to keep up. But I doubt that I could maintain any quality without them. I was thinking that perhaps if I could do a better job of writing on my own (with added tools to help me keep track of everything) that I might not have to pester them so much. But it sounds like working with other people will always be key to writing a good story.

[The Deposed King]

So with the amount and speed at which both of you write, how much to you send to others to look over, and how many drafts do you go through?

It seems as though I've swamped my writers group.

I think if I ever get to the same level that you guys are at that they'd never be able to keep up. But I doubt that I could maintain any quality without them. I was thinking that perhaps if I could do a better job of writing on my own (with added tools to help me keep track of everything) that I might not have to pester them so much. But it sounds like working with other people will always be key to writing a good story.

Fortunately for me my brother is like an editor.  He spends about 2 weeks primping it up and then we send it to the beta readerrs.  Like yourself I have found that you can overload people.  That's why with this last book we fired out the beta copy to about 30 guys and said help with this thing as much as you can but at least give us an amazon review if you like it.

Sadly I didn't get the 30 reviews off the guys but I did get about a dozen people helping to find nits and 2 guys who kicked ass! on the grammar stuff and minor discontinuities.

But personally, except for Falon which I was putting up on the bar in a give it back kind of way for all the help I've got from over there over the years, I like to wait until I get the full first draft and the brother goes over it first before I fire it off to any other beta's.  A throw back from the days when I wrote so poorly that just about no one would take the time to read my stuff.  But still if its all ready then its easier for the guys to read it.  You only get one first look.  After that a beta's eyes start to pass over stuff that they would have caught on the first go round.



the Deposed King

[Wordmaker]

I send chapters to my critique partners as they're done. Having that regular goal, knowing they're expecting to receive chapters, helps keep me focused.

My betas don't get to read anything until after the first draft is done.

[slrogers]

So I recently read and thoroughly enjoying Brandon Sanderson’s The Way of Kings, I was excited to find out that the classes he taught last year at BYU are available on line at
http://www.writeaboutdragons.com/brandon_w2012/

And he's apparently a natural at world building, which is why I thought it would be a good talent to try and grow.

As I was listening to his lectures I also had an epiphany as to how to better understand the interaction between Character, Plot, and Setting.
With my book there’s conspiracy, and with that murder and death. I had mistakenly thought of conspiracy as part of the plot as opposed to part of the setting. But it’s really the interaction between setting and plot that made it a little confusing to me.

Character: Sarah, an impatient, strong willed girl
Plot: Girl searches for the truth about her mother’s death
Setting: World of “supernatural” power mired in conspiracy

And the story is how all of those interact (the conflict and resolution that arises), and that's of course excitingly complicated. But now making the conflict that arises from those interactions into scenes is much simpler and hopefully easier to follow. And recognizing Sarah’s progression through the complicated maze of all the problems that arise from having to live in that world I created for her should be a lot easier for the readers as well.

I think this might actually make it somewhat easier for me to both outline (build) as well as grow my story. Having a slightly better understanding of how story components work.

(I still don’t know how to effectively blog: http://wordmindjourney.blogspot.com/2013/07/i-think-i-might-be-learning-something.html, but that might be the subject of a separate thread.)

[slrogers]

(I still don’t know how to effectively blog: http://wordmindjourney.blogspot.com/2013/07/i-think-i-might-be-learning-something.html, but that might be the subject of a separate thread.)

As you're too kind to point out I still have a lot to learn on a lot of things... So I was thinking about adding some of what I said here to the thread on "is an English degree required." Because it's amazing to me how much volume of writing I can produce without learning much. And then when I finally figure something out, I realize that it might have been something I could have learned from a text book or a class room someplace.
Granted I am having much more fun learning this way -- by asking you guys here in this forum and just trying a lot of stuff out. But it is an interesting process trying to figure out what exactly is my greatest weakness and how best to turn it into a strength.