The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Meta concept of how the DF will/is playing out [CD, MM and BAT Spoilers]
knnn:
--- Quote from: Serack on July 12, 2013, 01:02:10 PM ---At first I thought you ment The Shedd in SmF. If instead you mean the portal Harry used to get to Edinburg from Chicago (I think it was near a slaughterhouse) that was monitored by the contracted out P.I. and Mouse, yah, that certainly seems to contradict things. Plus Harry's experiences following his Mother's advice.
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Actually, I was talking about the storage rental space Harry hides Michael in. The back wall of the storage room "coincidentally" opens up directly onto a "way".
Heck, what about Harry's basement? You've got to assume that anyone stepping into the NN from there had to run into Lea's garden, otherwise what's the point? How about Corpsetaker's NN defences? If a portal opens to a different place depending on which wizard opens it, how can you ever have a single point of defence?
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: Serack on July 12, 2013, 01:02:10 PM ---At first I thought you ment The Shedd in SmF. If instead you mean the portal Harry used to get to Edinburg from Chicago (I think it was near a slaughterhouse) that was monitored by the contracted out P.I. and Mouse, yah, that certainly seems to contradict things. Plus Harry's experiences following his Mother's advice.
I think those apparent contradictions could be remedied by considering the intent though.
The underlying point I was trying to make though, is that it isn't necessarily a 1:1 topographical correlation between the mortal world and the NN.
I had a prof in my junior year who was lecturing on mathematical fields do a pretty good job of explaining how you could topographically map an infinite plane onto a sphere. That took some mind bending.
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in one of my applied classes, during the final exam the computers crashed. I had some pastels in my art bag, and we all ended up sketching our final topographies :)
knnn:
--- Quote from: Serack on July 12, 2013, 01:02:10 PM ---The underlying point I was trying to make though, is that it isn't necessarily a 1:1 topographical correlation between the mortal world and the NN.
--- End quote ---
I don't remember the textual evidence I have for this, but consider the following thought experiment:
1) If the NN:RW mapping is not 1:1, than there exists a point (call it omega) in the RW that maps to two different NN points. Specifically, opening a portal from the NN to the RW from either of those two points will get you to omega. (Talking here about the same wizard at the same time, same state of mind -- assume that all the hidden variables are identical).
2) Now open a portal from omega to the NN. Presumably, you have to get to one of those two spots. Unless you say one of those spots is chosen randomly (which opens a can of worms, as now you have have to open a portal multiple times, until you get the right one), that means there's a deterministic method for choosing where the portal from omega goes to.
3) So I have a case where I open a portal from the NN to RW, step through, close it and right away open it again, and step back into the NN in a totally different spot.
I'll admit that I cannot recall any textual evidence that proves beyond doubt that this state of affairs is impossible in the DV, but if the NN:RW mapping really works that way, I submit that it would be the norm rather than the exception (it's a mapping -- this will be happening everywhere), and Harry would have explicitly mentioned it.
Serack:
--- Quote from: knnn on July 12, 2013, 01:23:10 PM ---I don't remember the textual evidence I have for this, but consider the following thought experiment:
1) If the NN:RW mapping is not 1:1, than there exists a point (call it omega) in the RW that maps to two different NN points. Specifically, opening a portal from the NN to the RW from either of those two points will get you to omega. (Talking here about the same wizard at the same time, same state of mind -- assume that all the hidden variables are identical).
2) Now open a portal from omega to the NN. Presumably, you have to get to one of those two spots. Unless you say one of those spots is chosen randomly (which opens a can of worms, as now you have have to open a portal multiple times, until you get the right one), that means there's a deterministic method for choosing where the portal from omega goes to.
3) So I have a case where I open a portal from the NN to RW, step through, close it and right away open it again, and step back into the NN in a totally different spot.
I'll admit that I cannot recall any textual evidence that proves beyond doubt that this state of affairs is impossible in the DV, but if the NN:RW mapping really works that way, I submit that it would be the norm rather than the exception (it's a mapping -- this will be happening everywhere), and Harry would have explicitly mentioned it.
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Harry has been told, and has observed many times that he has a lot to learn about opening gateways.
Here are some thoughts that might pertain to your gedanken experiment.
1) Vadderung opened a Gateway at Chichen Itza that went straight to Chicago. I'd bet good money that if Harry opened a Gateway in the exact same place it would go somewhere else.
2) Every time Cowl opens up a portal, where ever it may be from, it has the same smells and it is implied it is to the same place. Peabody's portal near the end of TC seems to be to the same place as well. It wasn't stated in the text that the physical Edenburg exit Peabody ran to was or wasn't the one that leads to the way that Harry uses to get to Chicago, but it is quite likely that most other gateways opened by wizards other than Peabody's don't go to where Peabody's opened to. In fact, I think the text pretty much even states that if Peabody's had closed Harry wouldn't have been able to get to the same place.
Finally, the Gatekeeper's comments about Harry's making it to the Outer Gates, make me think that there may be places in the NN that don't directly map to the mortal world. This may be too much supposition, especially when you consider that Jim has said things that imply that you could get there, you would just have to find a different way that would get you to the surface of the moon first.
knnn:
--- Quote from: Serack on July 12, 2013, 01:49:52 PM ---Harry has been told, and has observed many times that he has a lot to learn about opening gateways.
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I don't disagree, if I ever had a chance to sit down with Jim, figuring out the "physics" behind the NN would be cool topic.
Here are some thoughts that might pertain to your gedanken experiment.
--- Quote from: Serack on July 12, 2013, 01:49:52 PM ---1) Vadderung opened a Gateway at Chichen Itza that went straight to Chicago. I'd bet good money that if Harry opened a Gateway in the exact same place it would go somewhere else.
--- End quote ---
Per the beginning of CD, that's a very special case (as when Mab opens a door from AT to Chicago). I don't think we can use this as an example.
--- Quote from: Serack on July 12, 2013, 01:49:52 PM ---2) Every time Cowl opens up a portal, where ever it may be from, it has the same smells and it is implied it is to the same place. Peabody's portal near the end of TC seems to be to the same place as well. It wasn't stated in the text that the physical Edenburg exit Peabody ran to was or wasn't the one that leads to the way that Harry uses to get to Chicago, but it is quite likely that most other gateways opened by wizards other than Peabody's don't go to where Peabody's opened to. In fact, I think the text pretty much even states that if Peabody's had closed Harry wouldn't have been able to get to the same place.
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I'll have to re-read that one. Actually, making a comprehensive "portal use" might be a good thread. In any case, this is obviously fundamentally different from the Ways, where there are fixed openings. I've got a theory where a NN:RW connection becomes more "solid" the more it is used (i.e. people expect it to always open in the same place -- so it does). Thus, Ways are very stable because they are frequently used -- the equivalent of paved roads between the NN and the RW. However, anyone can go off the main path and end up somewhere.
--- Quote from: Serack on July 12, 2013, 01:49:52 PM ---Finally, the Gatekeeper's comments about Harry's making it to the Outer Gates, make me think that there may be places in the NN that don't directly map to the mortal world. This may be too much supposition, especially when you consider that Jim has said things that imply that you could get there, you would just have to find a different way that would get you to the surface of the moon first.
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Yeah -- what would have happened if Harry had opened a portal back to RW at the Outer Gates (or heck, even at AT back in PG -- he certainly threatens it in CD)? Any kind of mapping means that the other side of the portal must be somewhere in the RW (unless there isn't a full coverage) -- though having it open up to the moon or the bottom of the ocean might per a damper on things...
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