Mental Evocations solutions?

[Lavecki121]

You don't need weapon ratings. Accuracy 9 weapon 0 is plenty overwhelming for most characters

This means that a submerged character is rolling +4 on the attack, if you are making that assumption than you need to have the defender at the same margin. It averages to five damage per attack assuming that the submerged defender has no skill to defend with. Accuracy 9 weapon 9 is pretty overwhelming for physical attacks and it looks the wizard even more since he only has to spend one stress for your proposed mental attack and five stress for my equivalent physical attack.

[Taran]

We just had a huge discussion about this in our game as well, we went with Weapon:X rating for attacks against non-physical stress is 2 Shifts per instead of 1 Shift per (i.e. kinda like what exists for Armor) - worked pretty well so far for us.

This is interesting...and simple.

[Sanctaphrax]

This means that a submerged character is rolling +4 on the attack, if you are making that assumption than you need to have the defender at the same margin. It averages to five damage per attack assuming that the submerged defender has no skill to defend with. Accuracy 9 weapon 9 is pretty overwhelming for physical attacks and it looks the wizard even more since he only has to spend one stress for your proposed mental attack and five stress for my equivalent physical attack.

I don't follow. Could you re-explain?

We just had a huge discussion about this in our game as well, we went with Weapon:X rating for attacks against non-physical stress is 2 Shifts per instead of 1 Shift per (i.e. kinda like what exists for Armor) - worked pretty well so far for us.

I doubt that that will be sufficient if somebody in your group makes a serious effort to optimize.

As a general point, I don't think mental attacks are meant to be costlier than physical ones, comparing Incite Emotion's At Range upgrade (1 Refresh, 1 zone range) and Lasting Emotion upgrade (1 Refresh, Weapon:2 mental attack) to Claws (1 Refresh, Weapon:2 physical attack) and Breath Weapon (2 Refresh, 1 zone range, Weapon:2 physical attack). Addictive Saliva and Emotional Vampire are 1 Refresh Weapon:0 mental attack powers, but they provide more than just the ability to make Weapon:0 mental attacks for that 1 Refresh.

Incite Emotion is a really powerful power. Breath Weapon sucks. (Claws is okay, but not awesome.) It's possible they were costed under the assumption that mental stress and physical stress were equally valuable...it would explain why the one that inflicts mental stress is so much better.

Regardless of the intent of the designers, mental stress is demonstrably more powerful.

Hmmm... maybe. Seems somewhat excessive for someone like Molly, who probably isn't casting evocations above 5 shifts anyway, but it does make it more comparable to Incite Emotion.

If Molly can cast worthwhile mental attack evocations, then Corpsetaker's gonna be broken. That's the downside of your method, and the main reason I prefer setting weapon rating to 0.

Could we make it 4 shifts/3 Refresh, which allows two 1-Refresh upgrades at +2 shifts, making it 5 Refresh?

Not sure what you mean. If you're suggesting a 5 Refresh Power that lets you cast mental evocations with no loss of power, I'd say no.

I really do think 5 Refresh for no penalty is fairer than 6-7 comparing to ACAEBG, which is 3 Refresh but requires one fate point per scene.

Per scene per target, IIRC. Using it on everyone could easily cost you a dozen FP per session.

And mental stress is more powerful than ACaEBG anyway.

I'm not sure it's that clear-cut, if mental attacks (Emotional Vampire) can have a take-out effect of death.

Death is as mental as it is physical, at least the way I see it.

Then how does Corpsetaker Take Out Luccio, who defends with probably Fantastic Discipline (at least Superb...) and has a 4-box mental stress track, and as a "significant NPC" ought to be able to take a mild and moderate consequence (and maybe an extra mild, though I personally doubt she deserves Superb Conviction), with one spell?

Same way Harry took out Corpsetaker with one bullet, using his unimpressive Guns skill and a weapon 2-3 handgun.

Stuff that happens in the novels is always a bit hard to translate into the game. We just have to assume that the target's consequence slots were full or that the attacker invoked a bunch of Aspects or something.

[Sanctaphrax]

Note: my earlier posts in this thread assume that mental Toughness doesn't exist. If there are mental defence Powers around and lots of people have them, mental attacks are a lot less powerful.

So maybe that could be part of your solution. Mental Toughness exists, it's common, and you will encounter people with it. Establishing that lets you play things a lot looser with mental evocation.

Being able to bypass Speed and attack the stress track of your choice is still powerful, but it's not 7 Refresh powerful. vultur's take would probably work well in such an environment.

[vultur]

If Molly can cast worthwhile mental attack evocations, then Corpsetaker's gonna be broken. That's the downside of your method, and the main reason I prefer setting weapon rating to 0.

I really do want mental attack evocations to be viable at reasonable refresh costs, though.

(BTW, I do think that the rules as written and intended allow mental attack evocations at no special penalty. This is me trying to pin down a way to do it that works for those who do think it's utterly broken.)

Are you suggesting weapon rating 0 for no additional refresh cost, or would you still have to buy an additional Power?

Not sure what you mean. If you're suggesting a 5 Refresh Power that lets you cast mental evocations with no loss of power, I'd say no.

It's really more valuable than 5 Refinements?

Per scene per target, IIRC. Using it on everyone could easily cost you a dozen FP per session.

Hmm, you're right.

And mental stress is more powerful than ACaEBG anyway.

I'm not sure I agree, depends on who you're attacking. Against a physical defense specialized target, sure. Against a spellcaster or faith-based character, you're going to want to attack physically.

Death is as mental as it is physical, at least the way I see it.

Same way Harry took out Corpsetaker with one bullet, using his unimpressive Guns skill and a weapon 2-3 handgun.

Stuff that happens in the novels is always a bit hard to translate into the game. We just have to assume that the target's consequence slots were full or that the attacker invoked a bunch of Aspects or something.

Good point.


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Mental toughness Powers really should exist, but if you introduce them, you have to re-stat everything that would reasonably have them (not really that difficult, but it is going to introduce an across-the-board rise in Refresh costs, so you might want to use a higher refresh power level for PCs if you use them).

[Lavecki121]

I don't follow. Could you re-explain?

I will try. I kind of ranted in my last post and then realized things I forgot. Ok so my argument would go a lot better if someone could make 2 evocators, one designed for mental and one for physical. I would but I have a hard time making characters as is. Assume submerged, optimize as you will.

[Sanctaphrax]

I really do want mental attack evocations to be viable at reasonable refresh costs, though.

You're going to have a hard time with that, using the method that you've proposed. A flat shift cost has scaling issues.

(BTW, I do think that the rules as written and intended allow mental attack evocations at no special penalty. This is me trying to pin down a way to do it that works for those who do think it's utterly broken.)

I don't know about the RAI, but the RAW is clearly unclear. So I go with the not-obviously-ridiculously-broken interpretation.

Are you suggesting weapon rating 0 for no additional refresh cost, or would you still have to buy an additional Power?

The former.

I'd prefer to make mental evocation attacks totally impossible, though. This is an "if you don't like that" suggestion.

It's really more valuable than 5 Refinements?

In some situations.

Partly because it stacks well with Refinement, where Refinement suffers from diminishing returns when taken repeatedly.

Partly because it's just so damn good against physical tanks.

I'm not sure I agree, depends on who you're attacking. Against a physical defense specialized target, sure. Against a spellcaster or faith-based character, you're going to want to attack physically.

I've actually heard the opposite interpretation for casters...some people like to use mental stress to deplete their spell reserves. And most casters have a decent Athletics and/or a physical armour item of some kind, in my experience.

Against faith-y types, both ACaEBG and being able to inflict mental stress are generally useless.

Mental toughness Powers really should exist, but if you introduce them, you have to re-stat everything that would reasonably have them (not really that difficult, but it is going to introduce an across-the-board rise in Refresh costs, so you might want to use a higher refresh power level for PCs if you use them).

I make mental toughness cost only 1 Refresh per level if you have physical toughness at that level already, which really cuts down on the Refresh bloat.

I will try. I kind of ranted in my last post and then realized things I forgot. Ok so my argument would go a lot better if someone could make 2 evocators, one designed for mental and one for physical. I would but I have a hard time making characters as is. Assume submerged, optimize as you will.

I'd expect them to look almost exactly the same. Spirit Evocation, 7+ shifts, some other abilities to provide survivability and utility.

You don't have to choose which type of stress you inflict until you cast the spell. So going for mental stress doesn't really change the way you build your character.

[Taran]

O.k...so after looking at everyone's suggestions so far.

I'm not sure I want to make a new power, per se.  Especially one that costs piles of refresh. 

I'm Re-thinking the "Sight" solution, which I still really like.

Wizards can just do it because they already have the Sight, but for non-wizard spell caster, how about a -1 or -0 power to represent the special training it takes to do mental combat.  It'd work exactly like the Sight for the purpose of making mental attacks using evocation.  This power wouldn't allow them to make the Lore checks to discern aspects and what-not.  It'd just allow them to make these sorts of attacks.  So it'd be less useful than actually owning the Sight.

I'm still tossing around the idea of requiring an aspect to tag - which would be easy if you have the Sight because you can use Lore to get something and tag that to open a channel to start mental combat.

It maintains the "mental attacks are dangerous" for both attacker and defender.  Mental toughness would, of course, help reduce some of the damage you'd get from using the Sight.  So it'd be a power that most mental focused practicioners would have.  They might also have stunts to help them aleviate some of the feedback.

What I like about this is it still allows for full-blown high weapon evocation attacks every exchange.  I like that doing this has a risk associated with it.  Not much of a risk for Wizards/warlocks who focus on attacking humans (where the resisting the Sight would be easier), but more of risk for Wizards who want to use it to bypass toughness powers against Alien/scary creatures.

Maybe tagging an aspect first is too much...

[Lavecki121]

What about doing some sort of mental back lash? For every so and so damage you take (fraction) in mental stress. It would give wizard something to think about done it would add to the cost of their evocation and drain their mental stress resource faster

[Tedronai]

Wizards can just do it because they already have the Sight, but for non-wizard spell caster, how about a -1 or -0 power to represent the special training it takes to do mental combat.  It'd work exactly like the Sight for the purpose of making mental attacks using evocation.  This power wouldn't allow them to make the Lore checks to discern aspects and what-not.  It'd just allow them to make these sorts of attacks.  So it'd be less useful than actually owning the Sight.

If it costs as much as the Sight, it should do as much as the Sight.  Whether that makes it a rose by another name, or whether the extra benefits are provided in another fashion doesn't so much matter.

[Taran]

Well, then is it just a -0 Power?

[Tedronai]

I dislike -0 powers, but even more so, I dislike -0 powers with other powers as pre-requisites.  They seem superfluous to me; where one would otherwise be called for, I much prefer simply to use aspects.
If a character has aspects that support the use of mental evocation attacks (and they are already in possession of appropriate channeling or evocation powers), then allow them to do so using the rules you determine are appropriate.
If a character with channeling or evocation lacks aspects supporting the use of mental evocation, then they should be as unable to use them as Harry attempting, well, any of the things that Harry is simply completely unsuited to attempt.

[Sanctaphrax]

Wizards can just do it because they already have the Sight, but for non-wizard spell caster, how about a -1 or -0 power to represent the special training it takes to do mental combat.  It'd work exactly like the Sight for the purpose of making mental attacks using evocation.  This power wouldn't allow them to make the Lore checks to discern aspects and what-not.  It'd just allow them to make these sorts of attacks.  So it'd be less useful than actually owning the Sight.

I don't think that would work very well. If it's worse than the Sight it has to cost less than 1, but it can't cost 0 because it does something good. So there's no appropriate cost.

Basically, what Tedronai said.

I'm still tossing around the idea of requiring an aspect to tag - which would be easy if you have the Sight because you can use Lore to get something and tag that to open a channel to start mental combat.

So you'd have to tag an Aspect while the Sight is open for each mental evocation?

What I like about this is it still allows for full-blown high weapon evocation attacks every exchange.

I don't think it does, actually. Assessing with the Sight is not a free action.

That's a feature, in my eyes, because full-blown high weapon mental evocation attacks every exchange is something I'd rather avoid.

[Taran]

Ok, fair enough.   It won't work.  I just liked the feedback and the block on other actions caused by the sight.  :p

[vultur]

I don't know about the RAI, but the RAW is clearly unclear. So I go with the not-obviously-ridiculously-broken interpretation.

Hmmm, upon re-reading, it's not nearly as clear as I thought, every reference to mental magic could easily mean  thaumaturgy except for the one about using spirit evocations with a summoned creature's True Name.

Given that, OK, I think either "weapon rating 0" or "evothaum" (if you allow evothaum for psychomancy to be bought outside of Sponsored Magic) is fine. It still seems a bit off because other supernatural powers don't seem to treat mental stress as overwhelmingly massively better than physical...

I believe there was a post by one of the writers about sleep spells and such in a conflict that definitely suggested that mental evocation was supposed to exist, though.

I've actually heard the opposite interpretation for casters...some people like to use mental stress to deplete their spell reserves. And most casters have a decent Athletics and/or a physical armour item of some kind, in my experience.

In a game in which mental evocation exists & is broadly allowed, mental armor items are probably going to be as common as physical ones.

And, most PC casters probably do, but I wouldn't necessarily think it's the norm "in world". Oh, in something like my Defending the Borders game, they probably would, but that's because at that power level it's barely worth having the combat at all unless the opponent is either specialized for it or ridiculously powerful (or both).

"In world", though, I think combat specced spellcasters are very much the exception (thus, even at the worst of the Vampire War when lowering their standards and drafting people, the WC could only get about 1/20 to be Wardens).

I make mental toughness cost only 1 Refresh per level if you have physical toughness at that level already, which really cuts down on the Refresh bloat.

Interesting... like Sight and Soulgaze kind of synergy?  Seems somewhat powerful, but yeah, I don't know how else to deal with the Refresh bloat.