The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
[SERIES SPOILRS] Wow there is a lot to learn from some research on Tam Lin
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Lany79 on April 23, 2013, 02:12:23 AM ---Perhaps I'm thinking of something else, but weren't the Grigori cast out, as it were, not because of refusing to to get involved, but because they fathered the Nephilim? So, perhaps Mac does indeed have a child out there somewhere.
--- End quote ---
Slightly TT, so spoilerized, and I apologize if anyone is offended.
(click to show/hide)The Grigori were the Watcher angels, who watched over mankind in the early days. They supposedly fell to temptation of human women. They stopped Watching, and did all sorts of things, such as bringing fire, tools, alcohol, cosmetics, etc, etc, to mankind. And they fathered children with human women, and their children were Nephilim.
From what I read ages ago, they were cursed to walk the Earth until the end of time, forced to 'watch' humanity, and await judgement in the end of days.
I remember some theories on the subject that said the Grigori, and the story of them fathering the Nephilim and giving knowledge to humanity, was an attempt by the Church to explain some of the older religions in a Biblical fashion. Instead of Prometheus bringing fire to the people, it was angels Gadriel brining make-up to humanity. Similar to how the Church apparently created a list of demons that corresponded with the old world gods.
madness:
The lore is varied and unreliable, so far as I can tell.
I could have sworn that I had heard a story about some of them failing in their duties as Watchers but not going so far as to interfere with mankind either. That they basically lost interest in their duties and failed them but that they didn't really cross the Rubicon so they wound up in some sort of limbo (probably not a capital L limbo) while awaiting eventual judgement.
Regardless of which variation you based the theory upon, it seems as though it could be made to work.
Phaeton Seraph:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on April 23, 2013, 02:28:19 AM ---Slightly TT, so spoilerized, and I apologize if anyone is offended.
(click to show/hide)The Grigori were the Watcher angels, who watched over mankind in the early days. They supposedly fell to temptation of human women. They stopped Watching, and did all sorts of things, such as bringing fire, tools, alcohol, cosmetics, etc, etc, to mankind. And they fathered children with human women, and their children were Nephilim.
From what I read ages ago, they were cursed to walk the Earth until the end of time, forced to 'watch' humanity, and await judgement in the end of days.
I remember some theories on the subject that said the Grigori, and the story of them fathering the Nephilim and giving knowledge to humanity, was an attempt by the Church to explain some of the older religions in a Biblical fashion. Instead of Prometheus bringing fire to the people, it was angels Gadriel brining make-up to humanity. Similar to how the Church apparently created a list of demons that corresponded with the old world gods.
--- End quote ---
Who do you mean when you say "the Church?"
IIRC, there is no direct Christian canonical reference to the Grigori, at least by name. The Grigori were supposed to watch over Man and, I think, educate him in ways to keep him close to God. Remember that "watch" may mean more than to merely observe.
The reference to the Nephilim was in Genesis, part of the Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Torah. The 5 books of the Old Testament were not altered (except by varying qualities of translation).
Saying that "the Church" did this or that is not really possible in this context.
The biggest source of angelic lore is probably the book of Enoch, which has been dropped from Jewish canon and mostly ignored by Christianity.
Edit:
There is a bare mention of a Watcher in the book of Daniel. But no details as to what a Watcher is/was.
Seidmadr:
--- Quote from: madness on April 23, 2013, 02:01:08 AM ---I still prefer the Gregori angle.
There isn't enough evidence to prove anything one way or the other but until something else comes along I think that the Gregori theory is the most likely.
Angels already have a lot of restrictions on interfering. An angel who 'fell' for refusing to get involved when ordered to do so and who was somehow pardoned seems like someone who might be REALLY restricted in their ability to take action or get involved in events.
--- End quote ---
Yeah. I like the Grigori angel... I mean angle too. After all, angels who fell because they liked the world too much, refused to return to the fold and whatnot. They taught humanity many strange arts, such as smithing, warfare, perfume, brewing...
JeffVandenberg:
I've always liked the 'Mac as Grigori' bit. There are a number of, generally subtle, angelic references around him. One that stood out to me the most was the line "This was God's beer." in Small Favor after Mac came over to share a beer with Dresden & Murphy after she faced down 'Tiny'.
For reference, most of my understanding and reference for Grigori comes from modest theological study coupled with way too much love of In Nomine. :D
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