The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
Fox:
--- Quote from: matolilyfu on March 06, 2013, 11:23:08 PM ---A grenade has one purpose - it go BOOM. It makes no determination of the appropriate time to go boom. It makes no determination of the appropriate place to go boom. It makes no determination of the appropriate way to go boom. A grenade just IS, but Mab IS, while making determinations.
Mab had to prove to Harry that his debt had been transferred to her, so she caused him to stab himself in the hand with a letter opener. Then (SK) - Then regarding the punishment of Lloyd Slate (Changes) -Yes, I know he committed treason. Yes, I know she needed to deter others from acting against her. But...
I have a difficult time getting the warm and fuzzies for Mab, imaging she's regrowing a soul, or even amassing a big bunch of respect for her, when I consider many of the "appropriate" methods she employs to achieve her purpose.
--- End quote ---
You're kind of assuming that negative emotions or behavior have nothing to do with the soul then, only the good stuff? What about hate? I'd think that irrational hatred would be as surprising in Mab as affection.
matolilyfu:
--- Quote from: Fox on March 07, 2013, 12:18:05 AM ---You're kind of assuming that negative emotions or behavior have nothing to do with the soul then, only the good stuff? What about hate? I'd think that irrational hatred would be as surprising in Mab as affection.
--- End quote ---
I never considered Mab having a soul, (and still don't really), until the question of Molly's soul arose, since we've been led to believe the Sidhe don't have souls and Molly is Sidhe now.
I associate cold, cruel, predatory, etc. with the behavior of the Winter Sidhe, but not hate.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mira on March 06, 2013, 03:55:50 PM --- I don't think it has anything to do with Mab's strength... I am willing to be that Maeve was allowed to pick her Knight just like Lily was able to chose Fix.
--- End quote ---
I agree with you there. In normal circumstances, it is the lady that select the knight and in most circumstances the queen did not interfere to much.
Now, the questions: Why does the queen not interferes in a knight selection? Is the selection of a knight is beneath a Queen's notice?
We know that Slate is weak. And I assume we agree that Mab knows about Slate's weak nature before SK. Why then, did she not order Maeve to replace Slate? If a knight have to be powerful and capable like Harry and if such a knight is critical for the winter court as a whole, how come a mediocre knight like slate can hold the job?
I understand why Titania did not interferes with Lily. She simply didn't care. But Cd show that Mab did care about Maeve. Why then, did she let Maeve have a weak knight?
The only answer that I can think of for these questions is the conclusion that a powerful knight like Harry is undesirable under normal circumstances. It is to much trouble to kept a knight like Harry unless there is a definitive problem that needs such a knight. This let me to think that Harry may be in danger once he fulfills his duties to winter. He won't be needed anymore and he will starts to be more trouble than he is worth, But since Mab is a strong Queen herself, she'll probably find a way to make use of a dangerous knight like Harry. A less secure and capable Queen however, might view Harry as a threat and might find it easier to terminate him either by killing or use drugs and seks to keep him insensible.
Butter's comment about the mantle shutting down Harry's ability to feel pain is Mab's way to control the knight supports this theory. If Mab have to regulates the knight so he won't grow to powerful , it means Mab have reason to fear her knight.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on March 06, 2013, 11:57:45 PM ---the difference is this grenade is self aware, and while we can debate morality or soulness has made decisions that limit civilian casualties as well as placed herself in considerable danger at times.
there is some one home there, folks.
;)
--- End quote ---
If I have to bet money, I'll bet money that someone is home there.
To assume that Mab is 100% force of nature means Mab is sort of a high level Anti Outsider weapon system with super AI programming. But the indications after CD did not supports this theory.
1. Mab is previously mortal. Human to be exact. And Free wil rule states that Mab the human can always choose. In other words a complete annialation of a human's soul and free wil is not so easily done. There is always a choice.
2. her unwillingness to kill Maeve directly is a very illogical and inafficient way to terminate Nemesis's threat. The queen's mantle, the programming she is installed with would have killed Maeve in the stone Altar and replace her with Sarrisa the moment she found out that Maeve is infected. But Mab did not do that. She take the harder path and hire Harry to do the job. It is the limit of what the mantle allow her to express her love, but the fact she is able to take the harder and less logical path shows that someone is still inside.
Textual evidence leans to the fact that Mab still have what remains of her soul. Will Jim gave us the background story of Mab's assention? It would help our understanding a lot.
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Arjan on March 06, 2013, 07:24:51 PM ---You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D
--- End quote ---
Hmm? What do you mean? Or are you talking about how Mother Summer said that you need a heart for it to freeze?
--- Quote from: Rasins on March 06, 2013, 09:26:28 PM ---I don't see it that way. I believe that she DOES give a crap, but that if it were necessary she wouldn't have any problem with it. Not the same as not caring about it. Then when you involve family, feelings are really different. She was OBVIOUSLY upset about having to have her daughter killed. Not that she wasn't going to do it, but she didn't want to do it. It was necessary and it served as a statement to the supernatural community. Both that she was even willing to do what needed to be done, even against family, and that her knew Knight could handle it.
--- End quote ---
I think we're interpreting the WoJ I posted very very differently.
--- Quote from: matolilyfu on March 06, 2013, 09:39:19 PM ---I'm having trouble with your line of thinking here, (although Ms Duck, you have my utmost respect). I think Mab guards the Gate because it is part of what she is. There is nothing to even hint she cares in the slightest for Earth or mortals - both are inconsequential, except for rare occasions when she can utilize one mortal or another toward her purpose. The outsiders are a threat to the fae as much as humankind, but I genuinely don't know if that matters to Mab. She is who and what she is and does what she has to do in whatever ways she deems appropriate, (those ways, imo, are often objectionable).
I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept. I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms. But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind. Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?
Titania can't lie either and she said Mab believes in reason, logic and calculation and MW said Mab is a too much of a romantic. I get sooo confused.
--- End quote ---
When you ask if Mab is evil, are you talking about in-universe our out-of-universe? The distinction is important.
And probably to a passionate being like Titania Mab is logical and calculating but to a being like MW Mab is too soft.
--- Quote from: matolilyfu on March 07, 2013, 12:32:13 AM ---I never considered Mab having a soul, (and still don't really), until the question of Molly's soul arose, since we've been led to believe the Sidhe don't have souls and Molly is Sidhe now.
I associate cold, cruel, predatory, etc. with the behavior of the Winter Sidhe, but not hate.
--- End quote ---
The redcap certiainly seemed hatefull of Harry.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on March 07, 2013, 02:36:48 AM ---If I have to bet money, I'll bet money that someone is home there.
To assume that Mab is 100% force of nature means Mab is sort of a high level Anti Outsider weapon system with super AI programming. But the indications after CD did not supports this theory.
1. Mab is previously mortal. Human to be exact. And Free wil rule states that Mab the human can always choose. In other words a complete annialation of a human's soul and free wil is not so easily done. There is always a choice.
2. her unwillingness to kill Maeve directly is a very illogical and inafficient way to terminate Nemesis's threat. The queen's mantle, the programming she is installed with would have killed Maeve in the stone Altar and replace her with Sarrisa the moment she found out that Maeve is infected. But Mab did not do that. She take the harder path and hire Harry to do the job. It is the limit of what the mantle allow her to express her love, but the fact she is able to take the harder and less logical path shows that someone is still inside.
Textual evidence leans to the fact that Mab still have what remains of her soul. Will Jim gave us the background story of Mab's assention? It would help our understanding a lot.
--- End quote ---
I thought you disagreed with me on this?
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