Relations between Summer Court and Black Court

[Dr.FunLove]

I think they or any other vampire are perfect to have it about. Just look at our debate here. Again though, I think we're just not going to agree on our perspective on what makes a monster. That's fair to say ya?

There are certainly truths that seem to be objective - like the sky on Earth being blue. I disagree that there are moral statements that are objectively true - the example of torture you used is subjectively true to you. To someone else, especially a being of alien intelligence, that might just be what they call Tuesday.

[Deadmanwalking]

I think they or any other vampire are perfect to have it about. Just look at our debate here.

The only way to argue that the Black Court aren't Evil is to argue that Evil doesn't exist. Which is a potentially valid argument, but not nearly as interesting as arguing about, say, the White Court or the Fae and whether what they are and do counts as evil even if it does exist.

Again though, I think we're just not going to agree on our perspective on what makes a monster. That's fair to say ya?

That seems reasonable.

There are certainly truths that seem to be objective - like the sky on Earth being blue. I disagree that there are moral statements that are objectively true - the example of torture you used is subjectively true to you. To someone else, especially a being of alien intelligence, that might just be what they call Tuesday.

I'd argue that any such being is evil. The Naagloshii is a good example of precisely this.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Deadmanwalking
Evil is a moral judgement and is subjective. I can't argue that you're wrong in your subjective belief on that but I can disagree with the idea of you saying its an objective truth. So we'll agree to disagree - but this was fun!

[Deadmanwalking]

@Deadmanwalking
Evil is a moral judgement and is subjective. I can't argue that you're wrong in your subjective belief on that but I can disagree with the idea of you saying its an objective truth. So we'll agree to disagree - but this was fun!

Yup, agreeing to disagree seems the way to go. And indeed it was.

For the record, I agree that most standards of evil are at least somewhat subjective, I just think a few specific things go beyond that, and are objectively wrong.

[Dr.FunLove]

Objectively - no, there aren't.

Are there certain things that we all might NOW subjectively agree are wrong...sure! Going back to the torturing the unwilling for pleasure - I agree with you that isn't right. Doesn't make it an objective truth...but I think you could find a consensus on that among humans.

[Deadmanwalking]

Objectively - no, there aren't.

Depends on what you believe the nature of the universe is. And, I suppose, how you'd define objective.

[Dr.FunLove]

Oh of course - I was just restating my position on that divide while demonstrating where we have common ground on such issues. I think that's good for us to know since we'll soon be playing together eh? 

[Deadmanwalking]

Oh of course - I was just restating my position on that divide while demonstrating where we have common ground on such issues. I think that's good for us to know since we'll soon be playing together eh? 

True, true. 

And I never thought for a moment you didn't agree that torture for pleasure was wrong. We were having a debate about the nature of subjectivity and objectivity, not really personal morality per se.

[Dr.FunLove]

Agreed!

This actually brings us back around to the actually thread discussion in that COMMUNICATION IS THE KEY and this is what broke down in poor Magicpockets game. See, if he and his GM had a discussion like this Deadman, I think this whole thing would have been avoided.

[blackstaff67]

Regarding Cassandra's Tears:
"Hey, werewolf, I totally saw you and the BCV making out.  Nice birthmark."
"LIAR!  No way you could have seen that!"

"Hey, the Black Court is trying to make peace..."
Nope."
"...with the White..."
"Nope.  Nada.  Impossible."
"Council.  Catherine's making too many concessions."
"(vocalization of a raspberry)"

[Dr.FunLove]

Hahahahahahahah...that'd have made the whole thing a bit more amusing ya?

[123456789blaaa]

On the subjective vs objective thing...it's worth noting that in the Dresdenverse Jim seems to be going for Objective good and evil:

The topic has devolved to Hitler.  As soon as it gets to drugs or Hitler, that's symptomatic of a thread that is about to die (or at least *should*).

I think the points being raised about the relative values of good and evil have merits on either side of the argument.  It's a big, complicated issue--you can tell, because we've all been arguing about it since we got a larynx, and a huge chunk of people on the planet /still/ don't pay much more than lip service to "good."

There's something to be said for identifying good and evil as tags applied to someone else--beauty is in the of the beholder, after all.  It stands to reason that therefore ugliness is as well.  We see something, and we make a judgment.  Is this pretty?  Is this hideous?  We pick an answer, and label it "pretty" or "not pretty."  But not everyone can agree on what is and isn't pretty.  It's subjective to an external viewpoint.

On the other hand, I don't subscribe to the "world of all grays" philosophy, either, because I have Photoshop.  You can make any shade of gray that you want--but as you start changing those RBG values around, take a look at what happens.  Grey goes black WAY before you get to the actual "value" of black.  Technically, yeah, it's grey.  But looking at it, it's as close to black as makes no never mind.

Evil's out there.   People walk into it all the time.  Some of them do it with their eyes open, but the majority just sort of drift down the gradient into the dark.  They're like a lobster being cooked in a slowly heated kettle of water--they begin to lose their sensitivity to the increasing intensity, and before they know it they're breathing through a plastic helmet and choking people to death with their brain.

Apparently, I get philosophical when I'm sleep-depped.

Jim

You can see examples of this in-universe too. Beings like Grevane and HWWB are about as evil as you can get without being cartoonish.

[Hick Jr]

Hell, Grevane is cartoonishly evil. It'd be amusing if he wasn't so horrifying. Like if Cobra Commander suddenly broke into Joe's base and slaughtered them. The episode ends with Destro and Dr. Mindbender playing soccer with Scarlett's head.

[123456789blaaa]

Hell, Grevane is cartoonishly evil. It'd be amusing if he wasn't so horrifying. Like if Cobra Commander suddenly broke into Joe's base and slaughtered them. The episode ends with Destro and Dr. Mindbender playing soccer with Scarlett's head.

Heh. Yeah.

I will now summarize Victor Sells, Grevane, Corpsetaker, the Naagloshii, Evil!Bob, the snake denarian, and Lord Raith in one sentence:

I AM AWESOME bla bla bla YOU SUCK bla bla bla I LOVE BEING A DICK bla bla bla etc.

It gets kind of one-note after a while 

[Mr. Death]

Hell, Grevane is cartoonishly evil. It'd be amusing if he wasn't so horrifying. Like if Cobra Commander suddenly broke into Joe's base and slaughtered them. The episode ends with Destro and Dr. Mindbender playing soccer with Scarlett's head.

You ever seen GI Joe Resolute? It's exactly that. ... Well, not exactly, but it starts with one of the Joes being found murdered, then Cobra Commander destroys Moscow while saying, basically, "The gloves are off, assholes."