The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
wizard nelson:
--- Quote ---So out of curiosity, if Mab is willing to rely on the WG's team stopping Dresden from using LC while it's broken,
Also, keep in mind, the Fae cannot accept favors or gifts without providing something in return.
--- End quote ---
who says she relies on it? she takes advantage of it. totally different. the WG isn't acting on her behalf or for her benifit. that they have similar interests is a coincidence she can use to her advantage.
--- Quote ---(they could have just as easily sent Mister to run around the model messing everything up and forcing Harry to start from scratch).
--- End quote ---
but then he can't use it later and LC doesn't become a chekov's gun for us to debate endlessly about before its revealed to be a red herring that kept us from seeing what jim is really setting up :o which is harry getting a delorian suped up with a flux capacitor. jk...
the rest i don't even feel the need to reply to... your theory stands on a gimpy, wobbly leg during an earthquake, no reason to push you if your already falling :P
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 16, 2013, 12:08:28 AM ---the biggest problem with the gatekeeper fixed LC, for me, is this WOJ:
--- Quote ---Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it? Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs. If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old.
--- End quote ---
It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.
at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.
ya see ?
--- End quote ---
Actually, I've been wondering about that WoJ since Cold Days came out myself. I was hoping to get your feeling at some point on whether the Summer Fire attack on the Winter Wellspring was part of Mab's plan or Nemesis'.
As for the rest, have you considered that even if Molly's kidnapping was part of Mab's plan, Harry's rescue attempt maybe wasn't? I mean, when you think about it, I could see many more advantages for Mab in keeping Molly rather than letting her go.
- It would be easy to threaten her with revealing her crimes against the Law to the Council. She'd be the equivalent of Elaine, owing favors to Winter, being shaped by them, and being prepared for her future role as Lady.
- It would be a heck of a thing to hold over Harry's head. He likely would have been more than willing to take on the Winter Knight position much earlier in order to get Molly back from Mab.
In your view, what advantage does Mab get from allowing Molly to be rescued? I can only think of three, and to be honest, they all seem much weaker reasons to let her go than the two alternatives for keeping her I listed above.
1. Mab would not want to make enemies with the WG's forces. Considering that the first time we meet Lea, she was part of a scheme to unmake the strongest Sword of the Cross, that doesn't really sound like Winter to me.
2. Mab figured having an apprentice would make Harry level up faster, for lack of a better term. This is something Harry himself mentions in White Night, so it's possible.
3. Keeping Molly with Harry instead of with Winter kept her out of Maeve and Nemesis' crosshairs. I think if Mab had a reason for wanting to Molly rescued, it would have to be this one.
Is there something I'm missing?
wyltok:
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 16, 2013, 03:48:37 AM ---who says she relies on it? she takes advantage of it. totally different. the WG isn't acting on her behalf or for her benifit. that they have similar interests is a coincidence she can use to her advantage.
--- End quote ---
You know, that's not really consistent with the way the White God is portrayed in the series. Remember, we're talking about the guys who allowed a history of abuse to continue in a family for 300 years. We're talking about the guys behind the 10 plagues of Egypt. We're talking about the guys who chose to allow Ivy to be tortured instead of rescuing her during the Aquarium fight so they could give Harry soulfire instead.
These are not not nice people, and they are willing to go to rather extreme lengths to fulfill their mission. Taking advantage of similar interests will leave you stuck on an island for 6 months keeping a soul-less body alive while Uriel borrows the soul without permission, subjects it to enough danger that it is almost permanently destroyed, and after all that, Uriel still tries to give the soul a different job offer and makes it sound like not taking the offer will send it straight to Hell.
Yeah, real smart to take advantage of the White God's interest in Harry without putting a deal in place first [/sarcasm]
--- Quote from: wizard nelson on February 16, 2013, 03:48:37 AM ---the rest i don't even feel the need to reply to... your theory stands on a gimpy, wobbly leg during an earthquake, no reason to push you if your already falling :P
--- End quote ---
If you honestly believe that my suggesting that the Gatekeeper decided to act in Proven Guilty in a way that's consistent with the way he's acted in Summer Knight, Turn Coat, and Cold Days, is the equivalent of a "theory standing on a gimpy, wobbly leg", then I guess we can just agree to disagree. Thank you for bringing up the point about the content of the message from the future. I think that's the first time that idea's been brought up here.
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: wyltok on February 17, 2013, 03:15:58 AM ---It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.
at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.
ya see ?
Actually, I've been wondering about that WoJ since Cold Days came out myself. I was hoping to get your feeling at some point on whether the Summer Fire attack on the Winter Wellspring was part of Mab's plan or Nemesis'.
As for the rest, have you considered that even if Molly's kidnapping was part of Mab's plan, Harry's rescue attempt maybe wasn't? I mean, when you think about it, I could see many more advantages for Mab in keeping Molly rather than letting her go.
- It would be easy to threaten her with revealing her crimes against the Law to the Council. She'd be the equivalent of Elaine, owing favors to Winter, being shaped by them, and being prepared for her future role as Lady.
- It would be a heck of a thing to hold over Harry's head. He likely would have been more than willing to take on the Winter Knight position much earlier in order to get Molly back from Mab.
In your view, what advantage does Mab get from allowing Molly to be rescued? I can only think of three, and to be honest, they all seem much weaker reasons to let her go than the two alternatives for keeping her I listed above.
1. Mab would not want to make enemies with the WG's forces. Considering that the first time we meet Lea, she was part of a scheme to unmake the strongest Sword of the Cross, that doesn't really sound like Winter to me.
2. Mab figured having an apprentice would make Harry level up faster, for lack of a better term. This is something Harry himself mentions in White Night, so it's possible.
3. Keeping Molly with Harry instead of with Winter kept her out of Maeve and Nemesis' crosshairs. I think if Mab had a reason for wanting to Molly rescued, it would have to be this one.
Is there something I'm missing?
--- End quote ---
well .. what I believe..is that Mab kidnapped Moly because she has a plan for molly, and she needed to get molly to AT in such a way that nemesis would not realize how important molly was.
of course, im the nut who think Mab hid LC from Harry in TC, to force him to go to demon reach, because she had plan later that required using demon reach and harry as part of a trap for her enemies.
now if only she could lure them into direct action.. by say letting her knight be killed...
rather then re write the whole thing out, have a link:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on February 17, 2013, 03:28:44 AM ---well .. what I believe..is that Mab kidnapped Moly because she has a plan for molly, and she needed to get molly to AT in such a way that nemesis would not realize how important molly was.
of course, im the nut who think Mab hid LC from Harry in TC, to force him to go to demon reach, because she had plan later that required using demon reach and harry as part of a trap for her enemies.
now if only she could lure them into direct action.. by say letting her knight be killed...
rather then re write the whole thing out, have a link:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html
--- End quote ---
Just wanted to confirm which parts of that you still subscribe to after our discussion in this topic. As I previously mentioned, I'm still not convinced Mab has access to foresight. You mentioned in this topic that you don't think Mab can see how her actions will change the future away from what she saw, to which I pointed out that well, other beings who can see the future have been shown being able to tell exactly how their words change the future (Angels and Fallen) or have WoJ confirming that they have that skill (quoting: "Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you're doing right now a week and a half ago.").
Do you still believe Mab has personal access to future knowledge, and if so, what evidence makes you think so? Do you still think it works differently from Angels and Odin? And if she does, why wasn't she using it prior to the big final fight in Cold Days? She kinda didn't see much coming that day.
If she can't see the future... can the rest of that topic stand without her having foresight?
Also, I don't think that topic answers my question about who's plan the Summer Fire attack on Winter's Wellspring was. I personally believe that the attack resulted in the Gate being unguarded for some time as every member of Winter rushed to AT, so it just doesn't make sense as something for Mab to have actually intended, you know? What are your thoughts on this?
(Actually, it does make sense to me, but I'd rather hear your thoughts first, rather than bias them with my own idea).
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