Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 4 of 8"

[NevynK]

Transmitting a thought or mental impression to another, as long as the other is not obliged to pick it up, is not going to violate the law

Since the letter of the law says invade I don't think transmitting will be a problem unless you are transmitting orders or in some way trying to influence that person. It basically like wearing a freakin headset only much cooler.

[iago]

Since the letter of the law says invade I don't think transmitting will be a problem unless you are transmitting orders or in some way trying to influence that person. It basically like wearing a freakin headset only much cooler.

Yeah.  It's ultimately just a wizardish cellphone, right?

Sorry about missing this last week for the laws.  I'll get back on the stick this week.  I had to be out of town for Origins.

[mikeryan]

Since the letter of the law says invade I don't think transmitting will be a problem unless you are transmitting orders or in some way trying to influence that person. It basically like wearing a freakin headset only much cooler.

Sending foreign thoughts directly into another persons brain isn't an invasion? I politely but vehemently disagree. The idea of it sets my teeth on edge. It's not as vile as robbing someone of their free will, but it is potentially annoying , inconvenient and down right creepy.

If I'm online and a discussion thread turns into racist propaganda, I can stop reading. If someone walks up to me on the street and tries to sell me (probably) stolen watches, I can walk away. If the phone rings during supper, I can not answer. If I'm in the middle of something and don't want to be disturbed, I can turn off the mobile phone.

With a telepathic message, you get it all. No matter how offensive the content, no matter how inconvenient the timing. Sure, a wizard might have a way to put some filters in place but I'm talking about vanilla mortals here. I don't think a mortal who is unaware of magic would have any option of blocking an unwanted or unexpected message.

Now I know I am very much in the minority opinion here. I'm cool with that. I'm just throwing the idea out there.

[iago]

Well, you're not wrong that it can be used invasively, just as a gun can be used to kill instead of used for target practice on a tin can.  But only one of those uses of a gun would count as a violation of the Laws ... the same could be said of thought transmission, in that light.

Sending foreign thoughts directly into another persons brain isn't an invasion? I politely but vehemently disagree. The idea of it sets my teeth on edge. It's not as vile as robbing someone of their free will, but it is potentially annoying , inconvenient and down right creepy.

If I'm online and a discussion thread turns into racist propaganda, I can stop reading. If someone walks up to me on the street and tries to sell me (probably) stolen watches, I can walk away. If the phone rings during supper, I can not answer. If I'm in the middle of something and don't want to be disturbed, I can turn off the mobile phone.

With a telepathic message, you get it all. No matter how offensive the content, no matter how inconvenient the timing. Sure, a wizard might have a way to put some filters in place but I'm talking about vanilla mortals here. I don't think a mortal who is unaware of magic would have any option of blocking an unwanted or unexpected message.

Now I know I am very much in the minority opinion here. I'm cool with that. I'm just throwing the idea out there.

[mikeryan]

Well, you're not wrong that it can be used invasively, just as a gun can be used to kill instead of used for target practice on a tin can.  But only one of those uses of a gun would count as a violation of the Laws ... the same could be said of thought transmission, in that light.

I get where you're coming from. I guess it's kind of like that mind control law. Sure, you can use mind control to get a date with a supermodel, but you could also use mind control to help your pregnant friend kick heroin. Surely that would be a good reason to use mind control, right.

Leaving the offensive stuff behind for a minute. Forget about offending, scaring or confusing a defenseless mortal for kicks. There is still the inconvenience issue, and I don't think there's a work around. Call display is a Godsend, and it allows me to not answer my phone more than I answer it. If I really want to dig into a book or something, I'll unplug the phone and turn off the cell. Come to think of it, Harry unplugs the phone when he's doing big magic too.

So imagine someone who really wants to get into a book, or a doctor who is in the middle of open heart surgery, or a wizard who is so focussed on a delicate magic ritual that he can't spare even a little focus on a call block. Then just at the critical moment, he gets a brain wave. "Hey, we're going to Mac's. Meet us there".

A bit melodramatic, but it's still an invasion of privacy.

[NevynK]

Hmm not sure but from what I've seen i think the magiphone has to be authorized by the receiver of the message so if you don't wanna hear it you don't, or the person has to break through your defenses (ie break the law) to get u to listen. Harry and Elaine authorized each other way back when but I don't think Harry would be able to use it with anyone that didn't know about it first or he would have to invade their thoughts in order to ask for permission which would equal Morgan chopping his noggin in half and be very bad.

[SoulCatcher78]

The voluntary aspect has me thinking of an encounter with someone who doesn't remember what they did the night/day/week before and is worried that something terrible might have occured.  If they were willing to let you in, would that circumvent the Third Law?  I suppose they would have to either be a true believer in Magic or desperate for an answer to even volunteer ("I thought Wizards could read minds?").

In the end, it all comes down to the GM though so if there's no official guidance, there's always houserules for this sort of thing.

[wyltok]

With regards to wether transmitting alone counts for an invasion of the mind, I point towards Summer Knight, and Elaine vs. the Unicorn. All she was doing was transmitting idle thoughts, but it was enough to stop it cold. Anything that's that effective in combat, I think, qualifies as an invasion. So unless someone wants to argue quantity as a qualifier of invasion or not, I would say transmitting breaks the law.

With regards to the WN spoiler, I answer with another spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

When Harry tried to contact Elaine while she was in the bathtub, he actually got both an image of her surroundings, and the thoughts going through her head (even the ones that weren't hers). So it's not just a mental sending; Harry was reading her mind, and her will was not the cause (although it could be argued that circumstances allowed this, due to other stuff I'm not willing to write even inside spoilers). So either the law allows voluntary telepathy, or they broke it.

-wyl

[Rechan]

Fred, how would this effect say, dream magic? Or invading the dreams of another?

And, what if you need to invade the dreams of another to fight something that's in their dreams/head in the first place? Would the act of invading to "Fight" the attacker be a violation?

I'm thinking specifically the situation in the dream episode of Supernatural about two weeks ago.

[iago]

Fred, how would this effect say, dream magic? Or invading the dreams of another?

And, what if you need to invade the dreams of another to fight something that's in their dreams/head in the first place? Would the act of invading to "Fight" the attacker be a violation?

I answer all of these with a cop-out: how does YOUR GM interpret the laws?  That's what's going to matter.  Because what "counts" and what doesn't can and should be on a sliding scale that's sensitive to the themes your group is going for in the game.

I'm thinking specifically the situation in the dream episode of Supernatural about two weeks ago.[/quote]
Haven't seen it yet.