The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
The Leather Duster time travel theory
Bakoro:
--- Quote from: roteral on December 31, 2012, 08:02:32 AM ---I'm not too sure about that. A mantle is something that contains power and if a wizard is strong enough to be considered for the position of Merlin, they wouldn't need that power. I think we are putting to much importance on the existance of mantles. It would be kinda of cheap if every power up Jim gives to his characters was mantle based. If Harry isn't the Merlin, he wouldn't gain the Merlins power through a mantle. It would be more realistic if Harry obtains Merlins journels and learns from those
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--- Quote from: roteral on December 31, 2012, 08:43:05 AM ---Lol sorry if that confused you. Power in the form of a mantle is inherited, while power from a title is earned. THE Merlin of the White Council earns his power through training its not given to him from a mantle. Otherwise a regular human could be given the mantle and become super powerful without the training and discipline they would require to control it
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There are Mantles and mantles. The Fae Knight/Queen Mantles are magical constructs which seem to be discrete entities from their hosts. These can be passed around and grant overt magical powers. Little "m" mantles are a little more mundane - one could don a mantle of authority for example - there is power in the position/title itself rather than giving an actual magical or physical power boost.
The title of Merlin probably doesn't come with a magical power boost but it definitely comes with the power of authority and political weight. The position might also come with secrets, special access or special contacts not privy to others - that is power in a different form.
The position of Warden is a little more ambiguous. Ebenezer already referred to the position as a mantle, but I think he meant it as people normally do - a position with special rights and responsibilities. The mantle of Warden does seem to come with its own power boost in the way of limited intellectus, but its real "power" is in giving Harry control over the prison and Demon Reach. He's been granted authority rather than a direct power boost.
So yeah, when people talk about Mantles or mantles I think we need to clarify what we mean: if we are regarding a specific role as being a Magical construct with some cosmic purpose, or a more mundane position. It's important because higher powered beings in DF have consistently been in or previously held positions of authority and/or responsibility. It's almost as if they are inseparable past a certain point, so Harry WILL most likely gain extra responsibilities for every power-up he gets but not every mantle in DF is a magical contsruct (that would be silly).
Also, it's been said over and over and over, but power does not immediately or necessarily mean quantifiable magical energy units. Power fundamentally is the ability to act. There is physical power, magical power (in seemingly quantifiable units), there is knowledge, there is wisdom, there is authority, and probably many other forms of power.
In the books we see that Harry has much more metaphysical mass than most Wizards, yet others who don't have as much are far more powerful than Harry is because they have authority, knowledge, and wisdom. For example, Luccio is able to do more powerful fire spells than Harry with less energy because she has finer control. Same thing with the Archive, she has crazy amounts of knowledge that allows her to wield magic in ways Harry probably couldn't imagine. Harry could beat Fix butt naked because of his absolute knowledge of his surroundings. However, Marcone is more powerful than all of these people in that he can hire the best hit-men in the world to do his bidding since after all, money is power.
wizard nelson:
that was a succinct statement on the subtle nuances of power. ;)
GrandPanjandrum:
--- Quote from: rekshek on December 31, 2012, 12:11:59 AM ---It twas Uriel, page 470 hard cover copy, chapter fifty one.
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Well, there you go. There's no fear of paradox (which Vadderung claimed to be over-rated anyway). Time travel exists within the individual with no direct contact to the outside world. The only affectual (sic?) design is insight and perspective.
If you're "future" Harry and you want to change something instrumental that happened in the past....Good luck, because inertia (Law of Conservation of History) will likely be too strong to overcome. However, if you wish to prepare for some unknown event yet to be accomplished, your future self can come back to your past self (via your subconscience) and push you in the desired direction to secure the knowledge your future self needs (but doesn't yet have). It's not about changing a particular event. It's about gaining the knowledge to better prepare for when that event is to occur.
As Vadderung said. To rewrite history it's easier to change the future (paraphrase).
If you haven't grasped onto this yet...try this pseudo-scenario:
Future Harry learns that "So-and-So" is behind an attempt to blow up Demonreach. However, he's never even heard of this "so-and-so." So future Harry time travels (and since past, present, and future all exist in tandem...he side steps) to past Harry's subconscience and tells him to learn all about "So-and-so." When Future Harry returns to his reality...wow...look at all that needed insight.
logistics:
--- Quote from: GrandPanjandrum on December 31, 2012, 05:31:15 PM ---Well, there you go. There's no fear of paradox (which Vadderung claimed to be over-rated anyway). Time travel exists within the individual with no direct contact to the outside world. The only affectual (sic?) design is insight and perspective.
If you're "future" Harry and you want to change something instrumental that happened in the past....Good luck, because inertia (Law of Conservation of History) will likely be too strong to overcome. However, if you wish to prepare for some unknown event yet to be accomplished, your future self can come back to your past self (via your subconscience) and push you in the desired direction to secure the knowledge your future self needs (but doesn't yet have). It's not about changing a particular event. It's about gaining the knowledge to better prepare for when that event is to occur.
As Vadderung said. To rewrite history it's easier to change the future (paraphrase).
If you haven't grasped onto this yet...try this pseudo-scenario:
Future Harry learns that "So-and-So" is behind an attempt to blow up Demonreach. However, he's never even heard of this "so-and-so." So future Harry time travels (and since past, present, and future all exist in tandem...he side steps) to past Harry's subconscience and tells him to learn all about "So-and-so." When Future Harry returns to his reality...wow...look at all that needed insight.
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As far as this goes, I do think Harry is being a bit more proactive in changing things then just acquiring information. The figure actively pushes him into new ways of thinking about the situations he finds himself in. He gets the Present Harry to do things he otherwise would not do. But because his past self is still making the choices, then the inertia problem doesn't apply. I suppose that's just a different way of phrasing the same thing you just stated, so way for me being redundant. Future Harry is changing his past's perspective and choices, and presumably altering his present in so doing. Or perhaps making alternate realities/possibilities, like a reality sized Quantum Superposition - Odin's commentary on twinned universes seems to be kinda like multiverse theory.
GrandPanjandrum:
--- Quote from: logistics on December 31, 2012, 05:51:13 PM ---As far as this goes, I do think Harry is being a bit more proactive in changing things then just acquiring information. The figure actively pushes him into new ways of thinking about the situations he finds himself in. He gets the Present Harry to do things he otherwise would not do. But because his past self is still making the choices, then the inertia problem doesn't apply. I suppose that's just a different way of phrasing the same thing you just stated, so way for me being redundant. Future Harry is changing his past's perspective and choices, and presumably altering his present in so doing. Or perhaps making alternate realities/possibilities, like a reality sized Quantum Superposition - Odin's commentary on twinned universes seems to be kinda like multiverse theory.
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Heh...try this one for more proactive. Future Harry goes back to Past Harry and tells him to hide his 44 caliber gun in Lara Raith's office when he and Luccio go to visit in Turn Coat. Then, down the road, Future Harry visits Lara Raith to intimidate her and agrees to leave all his weapons etc. with security. When they get to Laura's office, he pulls the hidden 44 out from where it was hidden and starts negotiating.
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