The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
KevinSig:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on January 12, 2013, 12:25:38 AM ---I suspect it depends on the nature of the mantle. if im even 10% right about how Mab's works, its allways changing as the database updates itself with new potential futures. lesser mantles may be static but anything that complex is either self referencing or downright self aware.
--- End quote ---
See the section where Harry's mantle gives him unhelpful advice on how to fight Fix, & how Harry points out that Slate killed the previous Summer Knight by shoving him down the stairs (thus, ignoring the mantle). The mantle doesn't learn, it's just an unthinking bunch of occasionally helpful instinctual commands. It is up to the Knight who holds them to choose to listen or ignore these imperatives.
Bob believed that the mantle could not be changed & from Harry's descriptions of past WKs, if it changes any, it must be a glacially slow process. Mab spent a lot of time energy getting Harry specifically. Maybe because she knew he was the sort whose Will, could ignore the less than productive qualities of the Winter Knight.
Mantles are a odd thing & I'm not entirely certain Mab has control over the nature of the Winter Knight. From the descriptions Harry gives, logic isn't its strong suit, & isn't exactly a reflection of Mab.
Plus, who is to say Mab had anything to do with the creation of the office. The Winter Knight could originally be a creation of Mother Winter & might even predate Mab. Mother Winter certainly seems like she might favor Knights who share Slate's disposition.
And frankly it sounds like the mantle pushes Harry in that direction.
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: KevinSig on January 12, 2013, 12:48:39 AM ---See the section where Harry's mantle gives him unhelpful advice on how to fight Fix, & how Harry points out that Slate killed the previous Summer Knight by shoving him down the stairs (thus, ignoring the mantle). The mantle doesn't learn, it's just an unthinking bunch of occasionally helpful instinctual commands. It is up to the Knight who holds them to choose to listen or ignore these imperatives.
Bob believed that the mantle could not be changed & from Harry's descriptions of past WKs, if it changes any, it must be a glacially slow process. Mab spent a lot of time energy getting Harry specifically. Maybe because she knew he was the sort whose Will, could ignore the less than productive qualities of the Winter Knight.
Mantles are a odd thing & I'm not entirely certain Mab has control over the nature of the Winter Knight. From the descriptions Harry gives, logic isn't its strong suit, & isn't exactly a reflection of Mab.
Plus, who is to say Mab had anything to do with the creation of the office. The Winter Knight could originally be a creation of Mother Winter & might even predate Mab. Mother Winter certainly seems like she might favor Knights who share Slate's disposition.
And frankly it sounds like the mantle pushes Harry in that direction.
--- End quote ---
thats the WK mantle. when i said 'nature of the mantle' I meant well.. nature of the mantle. there is a wk mantle. there is a lady manlte. therefor it is very likely there is a queen and mother manlte.. and we allready know of the archive, odin , etc, etc....
of course the wk mantle is a violent idiot. its supposed to be :)
TheCuriousFan:
--- Quote from: KevinSig on January 12, 2013, 12:08:06 AM ---Bob only mentioned Halloween as a time when a mantle can undergo change in its nature. Yes, the Winter Knight mantle can be handed off any any time of the year, but we are talking about changing the nature of the mantle & maybe permanently fusing it with the mantle of the Warden.
--- End quote ---
Depends on if that immortal mantle stasis extends to mantles held by mortals as well.
KevinSig:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on January 12, 2013, 12:59:22 AM ---thats the WK mantle. when i said 'nature of the mantle' I meant well.. nature of the mantle. there is a wk mantle. there is a lady manlte. therefor it is very likely there is a queen and mother manlte.. and we allready know of the archive, odin , etc, etc....
of course the wk mantle is a violent idiot. its supposed to be :)
--- End quote ---
I don't know what you think this thread is about, but we are discussing changing the nature of Harry's mantle, there's nothing to specifically pertain to the nature of Mab's mantle. Plus, given that Mab is considered constant as the Northern Star & I think there's a WOJ that says some things just aren't in her nature.
So, I'm fairly confused by your post, since in the context of this thread you seem to suddenly argue that the WK mantle is a constantly evolving sort of thing, which doesn't really work.
--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on January 12, 2013, 01:05:20 AM ---Depends on if that immortal mantle stasis extends to mantles held by mortals as well.
--- End quote ---
When Lily & Maeve are trying to talk Harry into killing Mab, they basically say that the Winter Knight is a portion of the larger Winter Mantle, that all the Queens share. It's just a certain aspect of it.
So while a mortal is wearing the mantle, it essential is a small piece of the larger immortal one.
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: KevinSig on January 12, 2013, 01:13:59 AM ---I don't know what you think this thread is about, but we are discussing changing the nature of Harry's mantle, there's nothing to specifically pertain to the nature of Mab's mantle. Plus, given that Mab is considered constant as the Northern Star & I think there's a WOJ that says some things just aren't in her nature.
So, I'm fairly confused by your post, since in the context of this thread you seem to suddenly argue that the WK mantle is a constantly evolving sort of thing, which doesn't really work.
--- End quote ---
no i said Mab's mantle almost has to be a constantly changing thing to do the job it does. ergo, its possible for a mantle to change- some of them may even be designed for it (to learn, adapt and overcome)
as mother summer implied he can change, it seems very likely the wk can as well.. how much of the wk being a violent intinctive hunter is part of its base nature, and how much of it is learned by prior WK's being that way?
surely not all of them were like that, id suspect quite a few were millitary geniuses of some kind or the other.
the idea it cant change is from Bob, and hes not allways correct.
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