The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Mavra is Morgana le Fay by grandPanjandrum (CD Spoilers)
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Cenphx on December 22, 2012, 08:01:31 AM ---Count, you've been over in the thread about suspcts for SF-FM-BR, right? Grandpanj....(crap, forgot the rest of his/her name) put forth a fairly convincing discussion of Mavra's action behind the scenes , which to me has opened up possible implications for the Black Court being way more involved than I was thinking...
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To my thinking, it's basically useless to talk about the black court as a whole when theorizing.
You've got to remember that there really aren't many advantages for a black court vamp to ally with other black court vamps nowadays. Back when there was a huge black court alliance lots of the members had control over other members. Nowadays two black court who meet have to trust each other just like they would to any other species they chose to ally with. There's also the fact that BC vamps have to feed a LOT. Doubling (tripling, quadrupling etc) is really not a good idea because it will probably convince the local supes to come down on you. hard (remember that Harry was obligated as a wizard of the WC to destroy the BC nest of one master vamp).
There really aren't many advantages for BC vamps allying with each other over other supernatural beings. The BC vamps that survived the Stokerpolpse are going to be doing there own things. They probably wouldn't care about what another BC vamp was doing unless it impacted them in some way.
GP's theory's are very interesting but even if true, don't really imply that the BC as a whole are involved just because one member is. There's also the fact that GP doesn't mention anything regarding Mavra and mama Dresden.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: 123456789blaaa on December 22, 2012, 07:30:55 AM ---Isn't that your own theory? I mean, it's a great theory but it isn't directly stated in the books. I haven't seen anyone else float a notion like that either so the clues must be pretty deep. Harry certainly hasn't thought of anything like that.
You mean his wizard precognition that he learned about in Turn Coat (I think)?
Eh, even taking that into account I think it's a little too weak to built a theory on. I'm going to wait for more evidence.
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You are waiting for evidence before building your theory? :o
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: 123456789blaaa on December 22, 2012, 07:30:55 AM ---Isn't that your own theory? I mean, it's a great theory but it isn't directly stated in the books. I haven't seen anyone else float a notion like that either so the clues must be pretty deep. Harry certainly hasn't thought of anything like that.
You mean his wizard precognition that he learned about in Turn Coat (I think)?
Eh, even taking that into account I think it's a little too weak to built a theory on. I'm going to wait for more evidence.
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yes, its mine, but all the evindence..and there is quite a bit..is in the woj. Jim just keeps mentioning the black court, over and over again..and hes been doing it since before there was a forum.
its like hes realy proud of it or something ;)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html
check out the 'lobecraft' 'gothic vampires' and .marci' threads there
then hit the woj, serach for black court- not just the pieces in the index, there is a lot more..and enjoy.
maybe i missed something :)
as to if its a mistake.. as JIm said ' im a lazy writer. i wouldnt have put that much work into them if i wasnt going to use them.'
123456789blaaa:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on December 22, 2012, 02:37:24 PM ---yes, its mine, but all the evindence..and there is quite a bit..is in the woj. Jim just keeps mentioning the black court, over and over again..and hes been doing it since before there was a forum.
its like hes realy proud of it or something ;)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html
check out the 'lobecraft' 'gothic vampires' and .marci' threads there
then hit the woj, serach for black court- not just the pieces in the index, there is a lot more..and enjoy.
maybe i missed something :)
as to if its a mistake.. as JIm said ' im a lazy writer. i wouldnt have put that much work into them if i wasnt going to use them.'
--- End quote ---
I can't think of any references towards the Black Court that wasn't in response to a question (which don't really count since it's not him that really choosing to reference them) and in a few short stories (the number of references towards White Court and Red Court vamps still far outweigh those though). He mentions the Black Court because people ask him about the Black Court (or they ask questions that require him to mention the Black Court). I searched the entire WoJ compilation and 5 topics below the stickies section but couldn't find anything more. I would be thankful if you could give me a link.
I have actually looked at those threads you mentioned previously. The thing is though, that I don't feel you have enough evidence to say that Mavra wants the Black Court back to it's former power or that the other remnants of the Black Court are all banding together. I find it very plausible that Mavra is part of the Circle/BC/possibly Nemesis infected but I just don't see much evidence for the remnants of the Black Court being involved too (see my previous post as to why).
These are the only parts of your theories that I can see having a leg to stand on in regards to the resurrection of the Black Court Elders are the Fomor collecting magically rich blood and the Kemmler connection. These are still however, only two speculative parts of theories. It's not nearly enough to convince me.
I'm also still confused as to WHY she wants to bring the Elders back. I mean, if your theory is true than it's not like Mavra is wanting for powerful allies. If the reason she wants to bring them back is because of some secret they hold instead of their power than how much good could that secret really do? It didn't help the Black Court when they were at the height of their power so why would it help them now?
Also remember that Jim specifically says that everyone resented how powerful the black had become. Why would the other members of the alliance ally with Mavra and go along with her plan to ressurect the BC Elders?
Really, I think that Jim has put far more work into both the RC and WC instead of the BC.
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: 123456789blaaa on December 23, 2012, 09:34:02 AM ---I can't think of any references towards the Black Court that wasn't in response to a question (which don't really count since it's not him that really choosing to reference them) and in a few short stories (the number of references towards White Court and Red Court vamps still far outweigh those though). He mentions the Black Court because people ask him about the Black Court (or they ask questions that require him to mention the Black Court). I searched the entire WoJ compilation and 5 topics below the stickies section but couldn't find anything more. I would be thankful if you could give me a link.
I have actually looked at those threads you mentioned previously. The thing is though, that I don't feel you have enough evidence to say that Mavra wants the Black Court back to it's former power or that the other remnants of the Black Court are all banding together. I find it very plausible that Mavra is part of the Circle/BC/possibly Nemesis infected but I just don't see much evidence for the remnants of the Black Court being involved too (see my previous post as to why).
These are the only parts of your theories that I can see having a leg to stand on in regards to the resurrection of the Black Court Elders are the Fomor collecting magically rich blood and the Kemmler connection. These are still however, only two speculative parts of theories. It's not nearly enough to convince me.
I'm also still confused as to WHY she wants to bring the Elders back. I mean, if your theory is true than it's not like Mavra is wanting for powerful allies. If the reason she wants to bring them back is because of some secret they hold instead of their power than how much good could that secret really do? It didn't help the Black Court when they were at the height of their power so why would it help them now?
Also remember that Jim specifically says that everyone resented how powerful the black had become. Why would the other members of the alliance ally with Mavra and go along with her plan to ressurect the BC Elders?
Really, I think that Jim has put far more work into both the RC and WC instead of the BC.
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hmm..
the first any of us ever heard about the black court elders at all was in 2009, in a post about Mab:
--- Quote ---Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:
o Titania--though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court--again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o The entire White Court--very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.
All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.
There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened.
--- End quote ---
which did cause a few questions that year:
--- Quote ---4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world. And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city). Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon. Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts. *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.
(and shouldn't the black court be the most numerous? in blood rites, ebenezer mentioned after a few weeks, there would be dozens or even hundreds of vamps, so y don't the black court vamps just settle down in africa or india and start biting away?)Nukes.
You get all /that/ assertive, and you risk stirring mortals into awareness. And we monkeys are /dangerous/ in large groups, especially with all our ferromancy (technology).
There's also a psychological issue on behalf of the vampires. Bear in mind that evolution made a pretty brutal selection among the Black Court. The ones who survived and prospered were those who avoided notice, respected the potential danger mortals represented, and who were generally quick to leave town rather than charge into a confrontation.
In any personal-scale conflict, a mature BC vamp is gonna tear holes through any mortal or White Court vampire. But the mortals started cheating, and doing all their fighting in angry mobs, and creating weapons that were ridiculously overpowered for the job of killing one another which could actually inconvenience, wound, or even kill a BC vamp. Murphy did all right in that BC nest, because she had allies, appropriate weapons and (most importantly) knowledge and a plan.
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now thos wasnt in answer to a question at all, he just chimed in a thread about the white court:
--- Quote ---Die of syphilis? God, no, man. Stoker was the cutout.
The BC didn't /know/ about the WC's involvement until well after the fact, at which point it was entirely academic. The BC who are left survive because they are extremely pragmatic. They don't have enough trouble surviving /without/ picking a fight with the entire White Court, who will only send the peasants and pitchforks anyway? If one needs to vent one's spleen, one does it on hapless mortals, preferably those no one will miss.
The BC who wanted to get all ballsy about Just Vengeance died in the fifties and sixties, culminating in the heyday of the Hammer films.
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(now let me put out total word count of things Jim has just chimed in on for the blacks is now double about that for the whites, and infinite more than that about the reds- cause they got zero. in fact, the reds dont even have a section in the woj.)
oh, and here is jim just chiming in again.. without being asked..in a thread about using the word on mavra
--- Quote ---Harry wasn't bluffing.
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and then theres all the little details issue. not just lash's last words- which are a very common trope in pulp mystery by the way ( the girl runs up to the detective " harvey, i know who shot the predsident! It was Mr. Sanp.." <bang! Bang! she falls dead.> "noooooo!")(then the detecive spends four books trying to find Mr. Snap.. snape? snapple? snappdragon?) but also:
-the merlin saying harry has no idea how bad it can get
-what happened on the isle in 1890
-who the last warden was
-why the whites betrayed the blacks, and how
-what mavra was up to in GP, BR, DB
-why eb dropped all those Nukes in the late 19th century
- what was the secret dinner (very likely in 1890) about
etc,etc,etc.. something very majoir happened back then
im not the only one putting this together. yall can put the pieces any way you want , please do. But the black court is up to something; thats why when somone else asked JIm if they were, he snarked
"im too lazy a writer to put this much work into them if I wasnt going to use them."
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