Author Topic: Speed of thaumaturgy  (Read 6010 times)

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2012, 07:31:55 PM »
"No less than a minute" makes little sense given what we're shown as examples in the game books, and the regular books. If you needed at least a minute to cast any kind of thaumaturgic spell, Harry would be dead at least twice over--no getting up a circle in Storm Front to protect him from the frog demon, no setting up the ritual to have the ghosts kill the Red Court in Grave Peril.

At which point I reiterate: houserule as you will.  YS is explicitly clear on this point, though.
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Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2012, 08:59:30 PM »
The issue though is that, RAW, Thaumaturgy could have been done in the past, and it is that you are releasing it in that instant.

I assume you are referencing this part Tedronai:
Quote from: YS 261
The first is a matter of time. Thaumaturgy is a slow art, with the fastest of spells taking a minute or more, and many taking much longer than that. Patience is necessary; speed is being traded for versatility and potency.

However that is not a rules portion of the book. There is nothing in there that says they have to and it is not putting a limitation on it. What actually matters is this part:
Quote from: YS 262
3. When the complexity deficit is met, you can move into actually casting the ritual. The casting process is identical to the process for evocation. Choose an amount of power to funnel into the spell and roll Discipline to control that energy, with any uncontrolled shifts potentially becoming backlash or fallout. Unlike evocation, so long as you continue to make your Discipline rolls, you can continue to funnel power into the spell in successive rounds of casting. When the power in the spell equals the complexity, you’ve successfully cast it.
Which states that the Thaum goes off as soon as you get the power to equal complexity. So someone could do a thaumaturgic ritual fairly quickly, if it is of low enough power. However it has much greater chance of backlash if you do it quickly because you are supposed to be taking your time.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2012, 09:09:31 PM »
The issue though is that, RAW, Thaumaturgy could have been done in the past, and it is that you are releasing it in that instant.
Irrelevant to this discussion regarding how long thaumaturgy takes to 'do'.

However that is not a rules portion of the book.
So your argument amounts to "that's not a real rule".  Good to know.
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Offline GryMor

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2012, 09:47:54 PM »
Irrelevant to this discussion regarding how long thaumaturgy takes to 'do'.
So your argument amounts to "that's not a real rule".  Good to know.

It's not presented as a rule, so the argument is "Not a rule at all". But that isn't really relevant, because:
There is an explicit rule that everyone gets to act once per exchange.
There is an explicit rule that you can draw up power once per exchange.
There is an explicit rule that once power meets complexity, the casting is complete and takes immediate effect.

So, unlike some of the preparation for some spells, which may or may not fit in an exchange but are often measured in longer time periods, the actual final casting could happen in the interval of a single exchange. How long that is will be dictated by how long your exchanges are, but those exchanges should be long enough to accommodate drawing up one package of power or you are stepping into house rules territory.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 10:28:38 PM by GryMor »

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2012, 09:53:06 PM »
I'm not clear on this concept you're using 'not presented as a rule'.  Maybe you could explain it in a way that doesn't sound like 'because I say so'?
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Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 10:02:23 PM »
Pretty sure I did. I quoted the book. The first part talks about thaumaturgy. The second states the rules for casting it.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2012, 11:20:31 PM »
You're both correct if you look at all options.  Standard thaumaturgy takes at least one non-combat exchange - a minute or so.  The slow draw of power is the price you pay for avoiding mental stress.  On the other hand, some sponsored thaumaturgy allows evocation's speed - it can be done at combat speeds. 
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Offline Belial666

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2012, 01:04:28 AM »
No, they couldn't.  Individual players do not independantly determine the length of their exchanges, and even less so for individual exchanges.

Umm, quote please? Because the rules say an exchange is the amount of time that allows players to act at least once. If a player chooses to take a longer action then the exchange lasts that long. For example, someone running 5 zones (several parking lots worth of distance) takes a lot less "real" time than someone throwing a punch or shooting a gun. And yet, both actions happen in the same round - and the guy punching or shooting doesn't get to punch or shoot more than once just because his action takes a second while running that far would take the other guy half a minute.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2012, 01:40:20 AM »
You know what's a great action?  Building a thermonuclear warhead from scratch.  I know my Crafts skill isn't all that great, but I'll just take hits on the time chart to make up the difference.  It should only take a few decades of work.  So, yeah, what's everyone else doing this exchange?
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Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2012, 04:33:55 AM »
You're both correct if you look at all options.  Standard thaumaturgy takes at least one non-combat exchange - a minute or so.  The slow draw of power is the price you pay for avoiding mental stress.  On the other hand, some sponsored thaumaturgy allows evocation's speed - it can be done at combat speeds.
The thing is, with respect, that you might be confusing what you call "standard" thaumaturgy and apply it across the board to everything.  If anything, I believe your statement is incomplete.  Not only does your reference to Sponsored Magic apply, but the emergency "holy crap I gotta rush this spell" thaumaturgy also applies.  Without that, it sounds like you're removing the option for players to rush a thaumaturgic ritual if they so chose.     

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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2012, 05:17:45 AM »
Without that, it sounds like you're removing the option for players to rush a thaumaturgic ritual if they so chose.     
Am I removing said option or are you injecting it?  Even the book's example of rushed thaumaturgy takes three rounds after preparation. 

Perhaps more importantly, how are you setting up the symbolic links that quickly?  They're not optional. 

From a metagame point of view, is there any reason to take evocation if you can use thaumaturgy at evocation's speed?  Particularly since you avoid taking mental stress for low powered spells.  May as well ignore evocation once you remove thaumaturgy's limitations. 

Sponsored magic gets around some of the limitations - but it has it's own debt driven limits.  :)
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Offline Belial666

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2012, 04:42:36 PM »
Quote
From a metagame point of view, is there any reason to take evocation if you can use thaumaturgy at evocation's speed?
Of course there is. Even the most powerful thaumaturgist can only call as much power as his conviction in an exchange - there isn't a way to boost thaumaturgy's power, only its complexity. And thaumaturgy attacks don't have weapon rating - they're just attack rolls.
Now, compare with a feet-in-the-water focused practitioner with Conviction 4, Discipline 4 and a +2 control focus, pretty much the weakest evocation-based caster you can build that's actually focused on his magic. He gets +6 attack roll (the absolute best a thaumaturgist would ever get) and also gets a weapon rating 4. The weakest evocation-user can deal 4 more stress than the strongest thaumaturgy user... and the thaumaturgy user still needs sympathetic links if he wants to directly affect people. As for what a really powerful evocation-focused caster could do in a round... I'm currently playing a pretty strong warlock. She can do Weapon 16, Attack +16 spells as rotes. If she really pushes it, she could level a dozen skyscrapers in one blow or rip apart a small army.

Quote
Even the book's example of rushed thaumaturgy takes three rounds after preparation.
Because it still is a strong spell for a rushed thaumaturgy and it takes 3 exchanges to control the power. When we're talking about one-round thaumaturgies, we mean 3-4 shifts for most casters.

Quote
Particularly since you avoid taking mental stress for low powered spells.
No you don't. Someone with Conviction 5, Lore 5, Discipline 4 who has a +2 control for a certain type of thaumaturgy will roll control at +6. When casting a 5-shift spell -- and offensively that's an attack roll of 5 with a weapon rating of 0 -- he will fail his control roll 1 time out of 3. So he either takes backlash (stress) or the spell goes to fallout, which can still cause him stress. Only powerful casters could ever cast rushed thaumaturgy without stress... and it would still be inferior to other powers or weapons (or even unarmed attacks) in direct combat.

Quote
Perhaps more importantly, how are you setting up the symbolic links that quickly?  They're not optional.
Symbolic links are, of course, still needed. But they aren't always necessary. Area illusions and Wardings don't need them because you're (persumably) already touching the area you want to cover. Similarly for worldwalking or shapechanging because you're affecting yourself (and presumably you have access to yourself - if not, seek special care). But almost everything else? Yes, needs a sympathetic link.

All of the above combined means that, while you can do combat thaumaturgies, such types of spells are impractical. A martial artist will be hitting harder in combat than a thaumaturgist, will run no risk to take stress, and doesn't need a sympathetic link to harm the target.

Offline nick012000

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2012, 07:53:39 PM »
No you don't. Someone with Conviction 5, Lore 5, Discipline 4 who has a +2 control for a certain type of thaumaturgy will roll control at +6. When casting a 5-shift spell -- and offensively that's an attack roll of 5 with a weapon rating of 0 -- he will fail his control roll 1 time out of 3. So he either takes backlash (stress) or the spell goes to fallout, which can still cause him stress. Only powerful casters could ever cast rushed thaumaturgy without stress... and it would still be inferior to other powers or weapons (or even unarmed attacks) in direct combat.
Symbolic links are, of course, still needed. But they aren't always necessary. Area illusions and Wardings don't need them because you're (persumably) already touching the area you want to cover. Similarly for worldwalking or shapechanging because you're affecting yourself (and presumably you have access to yourself - if not, seek special care). But almost everything else? Yes, needs a sympathetic link.
What if it's a Rote spell (possibly because it's thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation)?

Also, to everyone who mentions drawing the circle: just use the irises of your eyes. Pew, pew, eye lasers.
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Offline Ghsdkgb

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2012, 08:42:24 PM »
Also, to everyone who mentions drawing the circle: just use the irises of your eyes. Pew, pew, eye lasers.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Speed of thaumaturgy
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2012, 08:46:38 PM »
I'll need  address most of your comments later Belial.  One error does stick out however - symbolic links are not optional for normal thaumaturgy.  They are one of the specific limitations called out in the book.
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