Author Topic: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying  (Read 12369 times)

Offline Addicted2aa

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2012, 03:34:20 PM »
Well, I'm not much into D&D or D20 systems (I do like the Eberron setting, though) and I don't fancy pre-made adventures with every detail prepared and every room having its small map. Improvisation and rich storytelling are GM's best friends, not miniatures being moved on a hex-grid (although it could be fun sometimes). But I'm still a bit uneasy with the declaration and compelling others' aspects system. Up to this day I was used to having the storyline in my hands and as a player letting it in the hands of the GM. This proactive system is ... interesting and definitely worth trying. I'm just not 100 % sure it will suit me and my players. Which is of course a matter of habit and taste.

On a different note (I don't want to start a separate thread for every question I'll ask): What is your experience with the game-time and real-time ratio? I mean does the game-time in your games tend to flow slower or faster than real-time? For example, if I start my campaign in the autumn 2012 I don't want to have the year 2015 in my game after six months of gaming real-time. And vice versa. This is no problem with most settings but with a contemporary campaign it might be. Thanks.

Depends on how you run your game. Do you do a bunch of time skips? Do you start a session by saying, it's now 3 months since you killed that Black Court Vampire? When traveling for days, do players just arrive or do you Role Play it out?

As to your issue with aspects, this is both a narrative focus game, which you seem to have some experience with, and a shared control game. It may seem odd and different, but it's the same thing as you've been doing before. Instead of having to improvise cause your players decide to go into the forest instead of the castle, you now have to improvise because your player has declared that he knows you're main NPC from highschool, or that you're dark mysterious sewer happens to have a recently installed light system. If you're into podcasts, here's an episode that deals with the general idea of letting players define the world and a more traditional GM objecting to it, so basically this conversation. It's something the majority of the people on the cast had been doing since well before aspects or Fate.

My real life game has a bunch of traditional players who are just starting understand the shared component of the fate system. For the first few months, Aspects, Fate Points, and declarations were actually minor things, really only being used in the same way Savage world uses bennies, or D&D uses the GM's best friend +/- 2. I think you'll group will use them more like that, and you'll find it's not much different from the games you're used to. If you really want to start playing with shared narrative control though, get Fiasco, A Gmless game with no form of conflict resolution. Also worth checking out are Dread, Inspectres, and Wushu, which all have GM's but different models of control and conflict resolution.
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Offline Jabberwocky

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2012, 03:38:22 PM »
I understand the time passing being in the hands of the GM but still there are catches. Sometimes you will want the PCs to wait for something and time could just jump forward a bit. That's why I am asking about GM experience with this potential problem. In general, slower flow of game-time is no biggie as it's always possible to say that a few days/weeks/months have passed. The opposite would make me worry more. Regarding the episodic vs. series approach I'm not quite sure now. Sometimes it's a combination of both and you can tell only after some portion of gaming.
I want the campaign to take place in Prague, Czechia which is also our hometown. We all know it here and I personally think that both Prague and the whole Central Europe are a very suitable background for a contemporary urban fantasy. But with your home location you also know most of the events and they should be reflected in the campaign somehow. That's why I'am thinking about the importance of pacing. The setting should be fantasy-modified but also as real-feeling as possible.

Edit: Too slow. I'll address Addicted2aa's answer in my next post.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2012, 04:24:30 PM »
Time flows at the speed of plot. It is really highly dependent on the group and what you are playing. In a cats-paws political game, whole month can go by in the roll of the dice, while you can sit an entire evening at one physical conflict that will only have lasted a couple of minutes of in game time.

Look at the novels, they take 3-4 days tops, but playing them would probably take you a couple of sessions, often a week or more between them. Which means that real time will most likely be ahead at any given time. That way you can (also like the novels) just say "Well, it's been three month since you killed that warlock." and be up with real time again. If something significant happened in your city, you can fast forward till that moment or just incorporate it into what happened during those last three month.

Or you make yourself free from the concept of real time and fully embrace the speed of plot. You can then use things that happen right now in your game that is set a few month back. There are a lot of possibilities.
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Offline Addicted2aa

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2012, 04:52:20 PM »
well if you're looking for anecdotes, I believe my game runs at about 1 day per 2 sessions, and we tend to play out every day with no time skips. But that's how I have run most of the games I play. I have a flaw of not letting the action slow down, if we're at a point where we could time skip, I blow something up and make the day all that much more exciting. I also run multiple timelines at once. Not contradictory ones, but at one moment we will be playing out june 11, 1993 and the next moment June 1, 1993, and then maybe in a few sessions, play out the events of july 27, 1980. I also split the party alot, so my game's time has to be a bit more fluid that most are used to.
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Offline Jabberwocky

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2012, 04:52:54 PM »
Addicted2aa: Both. Maybe not as visibly as "It have been three months since you defeated the evil evil necromancer," but sometimes it's possible and useful to skip some time. PCs need resting and replenishing their resources. The same with travels - sometimes it's better to just say "the journey was a boring one", sometimes it's hillarious to play it out fully. One of my best gaming experiences (both as GM and player) were originally unintentionally played out scenes of no importance to the general storyline (two examples from a very long and funny line: a rather hyperactive PC being "trapped" in a flat with a sleeping girl whom he doesn't want to wake up but still having somehow to spend the terribly long and boring time; a "practical-jokes-are-allowed" Christmas night on a space marine battleship, etc.) So it's difficult to say what my approach really is. I use both.
As for the other part of your answer, thank you for broadening my mind. And I really mean it. It's interesting how appropriately used definitions can explain something. Yes, narrative focus game and shared control game are the phrases that describe it fully. I will certainly listen to the podcast (I hope my English won't fail me). One of the problems in my current situation is that I have never been interested in the "theory" of rolepaying or storytelling. We just developed from hack&slashing teenagers some twenty years ago to people liking narration, in-character interaction and roleplaying experience. With Shadowrun being in 1996 the point of no return I think :-) Thanks for the recommendations, I will give them a look.

Oh, and I actually read one "theoretical" text on RPing many years ago. It was written by Chris Dias and it's still online: here

Edit: Too slow again :-)
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Offline Addicted2aa

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 05:25:01 PM »
Yeah, I'm a bit of a theory nerd. I'm not as bad as they guys at the http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php but I still get into it. I look at it from a more practical standpoint, what techniques work and what situations do they work in. For that you have to understand a bit of the difference between types of games.

Like I said, I think fate will work fine for you. You're group will probably just not get into the more narrative powers of Aspects and Declarations. If you do find that the game isn't working for you, Look into Wild Talents. It's a supers game, but it should be more than flexible enough to model the Dresden verse.
 Thanks for the link, I'll check it out
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2012, 10:37:52 PM »
The time scale is always wonky in our games. We play for about 3-4 hours once a week, and in our current game, a day and a half has taken a little more than two months.
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Offline noclue

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2012, 07:39:05 PM »
The FP economy is heart of the game and tons of fun if you are looking to play that thing. Do good roleplayers need it? I don't think need is really relevant. As your diceless sessions show, you can roleplay without system if you want. The question is "does it sound like fun to you to look across at a player and say "Taking cover sure sounds smart. But didn't you say you were a "FEARLESS DEFENDER OF THE INNOCENT?" And smile cunningly as you offer up a fate point.

If you just want system to decide success or failure, this is not that.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 07:42:12 PM by noclue »

Offline Jabberwocky

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2012, 11:59:34 PM »
Yes, yes, I have already figured it out, too. And again - if it weren't for the setting, which I really like, I would't probably pick FATE for me. But as I am too lazy to convert everything into Cortex or another similar favourite system of mine I'm ready to give this whole "madness" (I don't really mean it) a try. Plus I'm getting interested in the outcome.

Another question, this time a minor one. Red Court vampires. Ectoplasmic body, right? I know I'm probably a stickler but the actual bat-like vampire should be smaller than his ectoplasmic body to fit in there. But they don't look that way in the rulebook pictures. So are the vamps smaller than average people? Are their ectoplasmic bodies larger than average people? Are they shape-shifting to some extent? And more importatnty: Did your players raise similar questions at any point during the game? What was your answer? "Magic"? (A similar "nitpicking" example from WoD - Camarilla vampires in Europe do their best to convince the world there are no vampires at all ... while in America Sabbat packs happily roam the streets parading their Disciplines for everyone to see. In a world of satellite TV and Internet. Such inconsistencies really killed the gaming mood in our group quickly.) I want my gaming world to be a fantastic and magic one but a consistent and believable one as well.

And last but not least: THANKS for all the information you are willing to share - in previous posts or otherwise. You are really helping me out.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2012, 12:07:44 AM »
There is a section about shapeshifters that shift into bigger or smaller things, I think the same applies here. Basically what they have to do is store part of their original body in the nevernever if their original body is bigger, or create more mass from ectoplasm, if their original body is smaller than the new one. So yeah... Magic.  ;D
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Offline Jabberwocky

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2012, 12:19:58 AM »
Yeah, I have already come across that section. This raises serious questions about the actual form and location of all that stored matter - that would be a hillarious idea to let the PCs find a huge pile of "temporarily discarded" body parts of every shapeshifting entity in the universe :-D "100 bucks if you ever want to see your right leg again, seρor Ortega." :-D
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Offline Haru

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2012, 12:28:43 AM »
Well, I think it is sort of like the dreamscape that can sometimes be created. It will be somewhere in the nevernever where it is extremely hard to find, if it is even really connected to anything. It might even be transformed into ectoplasm or something, so even when you find it, it is a pile of goo.

But yes, there are potential plot hooks in that idea.
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Offline noclue

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2012, 04:17:24 AM »
But yes, there are potential plot hooks in that idea.
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Offline Jabberwocky

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2012, 11:34:25 AM »
Might be all the dark matter in the universe the scientists are looking for :-) And the place is pretty self-guarding – in various systems big creatures are able to turn into humans. Dragons, for instance. So: "Seven tons of dragon (m)ass have just appeared directly on your head. Story ends."
Alright this went a bit silly :-)
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Offline Jabberwocky

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Re: Apects / FP system vs. roleplaying
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2012, 06:40:02 PM »
Ok another question, this time a more serious one. As I've mentioned before I want to put my game to Prague. It's a beautiful city with rich history and story background but I'm still thinking about the communists' rule in Czechoslovakia. On one hand I don't like the idea that every important event in human history was triggered by supernatural influence – the commies were (and saddly, still are) a bunch of mortal assholes. On the other hand it's very improbable that supernatural forces wouldn't have tried to use the situation to their own intentions. At least partly. I mean, there is a situation and everybody has to adapt or react to it somehow.
So, communism. I really resent that period of my country's history (I had to spend a good part of my childhood in it and it was plain awful – please, dear Lord, never ever again!) but then again the communists ruled here for 42 years and the changes to the very land and society were substantial. I have to reflect this recent history in my setting somehow. It has just influenced everything too much. So my question is – do you guys can come up with ideas who and how could benefit or be affected by such substantial changes in the fabric of society? I mean the supernaturals, of course. For most of you lucky enough not to have such experience: After 1948 the communists did many wrongs (executions, jail, workcamps, etc.) but the change in property system was most substantial and brutal – they nationalised all production. You were a worker? You were fine. A clerk? Not so shining good but still quite fine. You had a small business? You were a bad guy and they took everything away from you and harassed you and your family. A factory? To jail with you. Etc. So again – what supernatural force could have benefitted from such a concentration of property and production in the hands of state? Who (apart of the pure mortal communistst) might have wanted to take away all land from the hands of farmers and force them into compulsory cooperative state businesses? Because if I want a functional and consistent setting for Central Europe I have to answer such questions somehow. Communism was here and the supernaturals too. Any ideas? (I have some ideas brewing in my head but I'll be happy to hear some of yours. Thanks!)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 06:47:29 PM by Jabberwocky »
A Hundred Towers? – Our Prague campaign.
Dramatis personae – Cast of characters, both PCs and NPCs.