The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
Gigglestomp:
We mentioned in this thread quite a few discrepancies in regards to opening the ways. In some situations people are shown to open ways that others have previously opened, or expect to be able to open a way and end up in the same place as someone else had previously.
I do not think this is a discrepancy if you look at the fundamental way that the nevernever and the ways function.
The Way of "The Ways" Theory:
Every single thing has one or more ideas associated with it. Everywhere that one place has a similar quality or idea associated with it as another place, that “same-ness” causes the mortal world and the nevernever to touch.
For example, a bar (let’s call it “Origin”) might touch a space in the nevernever, we will call it “Space A” that may be close to the erlking’s domain in faerie because of the similarities in feeling to one of his halls. That same bar ALSO touches another space in the nevernever at the exact same time, “Space B”, which is close to the realm of Dionysus, not in faerie at all. At the same time, it also touches “Space C” in some section of the nevernever where the Pulp fiction movie is real and the fictional bar touches the in-real-life bar “Origin” where it was shot.
Now, each of Origin’s destinations in the feels like Origin” in at least one aspect, but it also feels like quite a lot of other things too! Each of these traits links up to a different place in the real world, that might not even be a bar.
Now, let’s define a “Way” or “One of the Ways” as a place in the nevernever that has a lot of traits/connections, like an airport! A person can get many, many places from that airport.
It just so happens that most of the “Ways” are in faerie, or close to it. Why? Because faerie is the closest spot in the nevernever to the mortal world. It touches the most places in real life. Probably the fae chose to live there for that very reason (They like to mingle with mortals).
When someone says they “Know a Way” all they are saying is they know a place in the real world, that takes them to a place in the nevernever that has a lot of useful connections/associations with real life places – Edinburgh Scotland, Chichen Itza, Ben and Jerry’s, Disneyland, wherever.
Harry mentioned that generally it’s nearly impossible for one person to open a way to the exact same place as another person.
Why?
Because:
1. You need to be in the exact same spot.
2. You need to know the exact trait of sameness you are trying to get to. Remember, “Origin” links up to Space A, B, and C for different reasons.
And then, once you get there, you need to:
1. Be in the exact same spot in the nevernever.
2. You need to know the exact trait of sameness you are trying to get to. Remember, “Space A” links up to “Origin” but it probably also links up to countless other places, a different place for every trait/idea it contains.
It’s unreasonable to assume a random person would know the exact link Harry or someone else is utilizing on either trip, so it’s generally impossible to open a spot to the same area as someone else.
This rule has many exceptions in the books that are listed previously in this thread. I’m not going to link to all the individual posts here, we are already here.
But a few examples:
Harry expects Molly to be able to open a Way from the storage unit to a piece of the nevernever close to a Way in faerie, that is a trail to a place that lets you cross over into Edinburgh. She would not be able to do so by simply opening a way. But by telling her basically where she would be going, he gave her the keystone/idea/coordinates that she would need to come out where she needed to. If she has just randomly opened a Way without knowing that a “Trail to Edinburgh” was an option, she could have ended up in any one of a million places. Maybe the reality in the nevernever where Dexter’s mother’s murder took place in the Showtime tv show?
When Peabody was running from the Edinburgh complex, Harry was convinced he had to catch him before he jumped into the nevernever, or it would be hopeless. Why? Because since Harry has no idea which “Space” he is aiming for from “Origin” Harry could end up in any one of countless places in the nevernever by trying to open a random gate. This is different than Harry and Molly in the storage locker because Molly was told the general Zip Code of where she was going.
I’m also going to use this theory to explain one of the many crazy “Odin/Mab” creating a gate to a specific place directly things.
Odin creates a lightning gate in the real world. A physical object. Let’s say it doesn’t even do anything. (Gate A)
He creates a lightning gate in the nevernever – say on Midgard. Again, doesn’t do anything. (Gate B)
He then creates an identical gate that doesn’t do anything in an entirely different part of the real world. (Gate C)
These gates do nothing on their own, but because they are identical, that idea/sameness creates a connection between the nevernever and the real world. Like drawing a line with a pencil.
Gate A and Gate C both have the same trait as Gate B.
Gate B has the same trait as Gate A and Gate C.
By creating this sameness, he could then open up a portal at Gate A, which would undoubtedly lead to Gate B. Then he could open up a way at Gate B that could lead to Gate C (or back to Gate A).
From Chichen Itza, Odin’s gate could have tossed Harry on his ass in Chicago. Just like how Mab’s portal in Harry’s WK quarters tossed him on his ass in Chicago.
Harry realizes that ideas connect the nevernever, but he isn’t on the scale where he can easily make new connections. Odin and Mab have enough juice to create similarities between places, and similarities automatically create paths.
Also, by creating a Gate D, Gate B would then have 3 different gates connected to it, and an alternate destination from Gate A. Odin could send his group to one place, and Harry to another, or even send every single person walking through the gate to a different place. All he needs to do is build the similar gates elsewhere. Which…theoretically a God could do?
knnn:
Maybe.
The problem is that it's not "path to Edinburgh", it's "a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh". This doesn't sound quote like a localized area.
Now maybe you can still argue that somehow the intent to get to Edinburgh is enough? That puts a lot of faith in the AI (for the lack of a better word) of spell to bring you exactly to where you desire. This seems a lot more subtle than what you usually get for instant, evocation-like spells.
Like I said. Maybe.
How about another example?
In White Night, Harry opens up a NN portal and Thomas just happens to be standing outside. Now maybe Thomas found one of those point where the NN touches, but how did Harry know exactly where to open the portal or which exact idea would bring Thomas? Again, you can argue that Harry happened to have Thomas in his mind, so the spell automatically figured out where a White Court vampire would end up yada, yada, but that seems way more advanced than what the text seems to be implying.
Tami Seven:
--- Quote from: knnn on May 01, 2014, 03:57:47 PM ---Maybe.
The problem is that it's not "path to Edinburgh", it's "a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh". This doesn't sound quote like a localized area.
Now maybe you can still argue that somehow the intent to get to Edinburgh is enough? That puts a lot of faith in the AI (for the lack of a better word) of spell to bring you exactly to where you desire. This seems a lot more subtle than what you usually get for instant, evocation-like spells.
Like I said. Maybe.
How about another example?
In White Night, Harry opens up a NN portal and Thomas just happens to be standing outside. Now maybe Thomas found one of those point where the NN touches, but how did Harry know exactly where to open the portal or which exact idea would bring Thomas? Again, you can argue that Harry happened to have Thomas in his mind, so the spell automatically figured out where a White Court vampire would end up yada, yada, but that seems way more advanced than what the text seems to be implying.
--- End quote ---
IIRC Harry said that Thomas should have been able to open the portal between the NeverNever and the Deeps because he had an emotional, though negative, connection to it. If Harry had somehow signaled Thomas who then opened the Portal, that might have made more sense. But maybe it was enough that Thomas knew where to go, where the portal would appear while Harry had an image in his mind of Thomas standing there waiting fir him.
Gigglestomp:
--- Quote from: Tami Seven on May 01, 2014, 04:30:14 PM ---IIRC Harry said that Thomas should have been able to open the portal between the NeverNever because he had an emotional, though negative, connection to it. If Harry had somehow signaled Thomas who then opened the Portal, that might have made more sense. But maybe it was enough that Thomas knew where to go, where the portal would appear while Harry had an image in his mind of Thomas standing there waiting fir him.
--- End quote ---
Or one of the place's many connections, connected to Thomas who had had a negative experience there. Harry opened a portal to "Thomas" for lack of a better word. Thomas was standing by to cross over using the same connection.
Also, knnn
I was trying to say exactly what you said here...
"a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh".
Harry told Morgan and Molly that it let out "a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh". So they would be able to zone-in on that connection. He didnt tell them "it takes you to edenburgh".
knnn:
--- Quote from: Tami Seven on May 01, 2014, 04:30:14 PM ---IIRC Harry said that Thomas should have been able to open the portal between the NeverNever because he had an emotional, though negative, connection to it. If Harry had somehow signaled Thomas who then opened the Portal, that might have made more sense. But maybe it was enough that Thomas knew where to go, where the portal would appear while Harry had an image in his mind of Thomas standing there waiting fir him.
--- End quote ---
Yup, GP establishes that Thomas can open portals in certain places.
The timing had to be in Harry's control, so I guess he thought doing it himself would be easier/faster. Harry having an image of Thomas in mind means that you have to posit that the portal spell can also link to dynamic targets on the fly. That spell is now becoming *really* versatile.
You can still find enough wiggle room to make it all plausible, but...
Maybe.
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